Gimli's Route to Rivendell

[Mithalwen]

But it doesn't make sense relative to the journey they have already made...It doubles it. Yes they are interested in Balin but it isn't their top priority. Dain took 500 warriors to the Battle of the five armies. There were probably more left in the Iron Hills but some would have been killed in the Bo5A . We know that some had decamped to Moria and Dwarves are slow breeders so Dain doesn't have that much manpower to spare on a non vital errand especially through such dangerous territory.

I don't see what the Moria colony could have brought to the table to use albeit appropriate management speak. It would just have been a complete waste of time and resources merely to satisfy curiosity. Dain surely knew Bilbo was at Rivendell. In fact Gloin says he was sent to warn Bilbo. If you go to warn someone you do not take a detour for a fact finding mission especially if it will take you twice as long... and we are talking extra weeks not another hour or day. We don't know that Gimli and Gloin travelled alone, in fact they probably didn't since otherwise Gimli might not have left his father to travel alone . Dain would have had to send a larger party to Moria since the route was more dangerous and he must expect danger at its end.. I don't believe it was a logical option to waste warriors on what he must have guessed would be a wild goose chase, especially when they could not return in time. Even if he had sent them after the first messenger visit I don't think it would be a sensible use of slender resources.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it doesn't make sense relative to the journey they have already made...It doubles it.

Again, as I said before, from the time the dwarves saw that things were worrisome (the arrival of Sauron's first emissary) to the time Gimli arrived in Rivendell, there was plenty of time to check on the status of Moria. Especially since they hadn't heard from Balin already for years; Balin, himself, was killed in TA 2994- 24 years before the Council of Elrond.

Gimli could have left earlier and checked it himself, enroute- maybe not the best plan. Or Dain could have sent another party- a better plan. It just seems odd that Gimli went all the way to Rivendell and, only because Caradhras was impassible, was finally the first dwarf to scout Moria after Balin's colonists.

Yes they are interested in Balin but it isn't their top priority.

I've always thought family was a priority.

Dain took 500 warriors to the Battle of the five armies. There were probably more left in the Iron Hills but some would have been killed in the Bo5A . We know that some had decamped to Moria and Dwarves are slow breeders so Dain doesn't have that much manpower to spare on a non vital errand especially through such dangerous territory.

All the more reason to check on them, I say. Slow breeders, few in number, and family members. Think about how some people now fret if they can't get an answer on someone's cell phone, and they hadn't heard from Moria for years. It doesn't seem sensible.

I don't see what the Moria colony could have brought to the table to use albeit appropriate management speak. It would just have been a complete waste of time and resources merely to satisfy curiosity.

Dain couldn't have known that. You do because you have metaknowledge as a reader. And I'm only talking about a small party of dwarves. I'll bet for the right price, some Beornings or Dalemen could have accompanied them. The dwarves certainly had wealth to spare. I know they're a bit xenophobic, but really... Besides, Erebor and Dale had good relations.

Dain surely knew Bilbo was at Rivendell. In fact Gloin says he was sent to warn Bilbo. If you go to warn someone you do not take a detour for a fact finding mission especially if it will take you twice as long... and we are talking extra weeks not another hour or day.

Once again (hopefully the last time), sending Gimli enroute was one possibility. Others could have been sent and/or earlier.

We don't know that Gimli and Gloin travelled alone, in fact they probably didn't since otherwise Gimli might not have left his father to travel alone . Dain would have had to send a larger party to Moria since the route was more dangerous and he must expect danger at its end.. I don't believe it was a logical option to waste warriors on what he must have guessed would be a wild goose chase, especially when they could not return in time. Even if he had sent them after the first messenger visit I don't think it would be a sensible use of slender resources.

I think you're only guessing about how slender Dain's resources may have been. He brought 500 warriors ("skilled veterans" as described here) to the Bo5A. Skilled veterans would make up a minority percentage of any army, and a small percentage of any race/nation's population. Somewhere there were also dwarf children (growing and born) and women, even with their slow reproduction rate, and nonwarrior men.

The Bo5A was in TA 2941, and the Council of Elrond was in 3018. 77 years is a lot of time to harness a peoples' strength, even among long-lived races like dwarves.

Anyway, this seems to be descending into a debate I didn't intend to spend this much time on.

[Rumil]

It is still rather a mystery as to why no conatct was kept up between Dain and Balin. I see two or three possibilities

1- Politically maybe it was against Dain's interest to be in contact - Balin had defied his authority after all and we know that the Dwarves held serious grudges

2- Messengers were sent but never returned (either direction) probably caught by the orcs somewhere in the Carrock-Dul Guldur area, or on the approaches to Moria itself. Perhaps Dwarven captives still languished in the dungeons of Moria and/or Dol Guldur?

3. Messengers were sent but ran into orcish forces as above but escaped, returned and Dain or Balin concluded it was pointless to try and get through again.

Possibly a combination?

I agree that Gimli had different fish to fry.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

It is still rather a mystery as to why no conatct was kept up between Dain and Balin. I see two or three possibilities

1- Politically maybe it was against Dain's interest to be in contact - Balin had defied his authority after all and we know that the Dwarves held serious grudges

We know that wasn't the case, because Dáin had actually given permission for Balin to go.

'At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go: and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk....'

Glóin at the Council of Elrond

I see that as Dáin doing everything in his power to talk Balin out of going, then giving in when he saw Balin wasn't going to let the matter rest.

Originally Posted by Rumil

2- Messengers were sent but never returned (either direction) probably caught by the orcs somewhere in the Carrock-Dul Guldur area, or on the approaches to Moria itself. Perhaps Dwarven captives still languished in the dungeons of Moria and/or Dol Guldur?

3. Messengers were sent but ran into orcish forces as above but escaped, returned and Dain or Balin concluded it was pointless to try and get through again.

I don't think the second and third options are likely either. Glóin indicated that they simply stopped receiving messages from Moria, with no mention of any more of Dáin's people going missing after being sent to check on Balin and Co.

I still think the likely reason Erebor did not try to re-establish contact was Dáin. He alone had looked into Moria and seen Durin's Bane. He had to the wisdom to recognise after the great Battle of Nanduhirion that not even all the forces they had there at their disposal, after the Orcs had been destroyed, were enough to drive out or destroy Durin's Bane. I imagine him thinking, after not hearing from the colony for a long time, "Well, I was afraid something like that would happen. I tried to tell him going there was a mistake. If Balin and the others are dead, there's nothing I can do."

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Related. What would be the way messagesmight be passed between
Moria and Erebor? By bird or dwarf? Perhaps passing men,
or, given the length of such a journey, dwarves taking messages to the Beornings
and then having them give it to a passing traveler to get to
Dale? And would it be a one- or two-way message sysem?

Or perhaps the best, surest way would be to use rangers
(both rangers and dwarves could be of service to the other
and want to keep on good terms).

[Puddleglum]

Whether there were any specific attempts to see why messages from Moria had stopped we don't know (as has been observed). As far as Golin's embassy, however, consider:

• Dwarves are very proud and don't tend to like to ask anyone else for help (especially Elves - even ones they are friendly with). That Dain was finally driven to seek Elrond's ADVICE (as in, "we dwarves are NOT wise enough to figure this out ourselves") is a big clue as to how IMPORTANT this trip was.
• While Dain didn't know what had happened in Moria, he had to suspect foul play. It's hard to imagine any other likely reason for Balin's new realm to go silent. PLUS, Dain knew that Durin's Bane had been there for hundreds of years (it was actually much longer, but Dain may not have known that) and had been single-handedly responsible for driving out a much stronger Dwarvish people than Balin had.
• "Checking On" Moria would have meant more than just waling into Dimrill Dale and gazing at the gates for a while. It would have meant walking INTO Moria through the Front Gate - where they are most likely to be seen if there ARE any Orcs there. IE, if you want to reconnoiter, it'd better be a reconnoiter IN STRENGTH - and even that is chancy.
• Remember, the Fellowship got in from the back door - where the Orcs were less vigilant. Also, they had a Wizard along who was able to take the Balrog out of the mix. Coming in through the Front Door just could not be done secretly.
• And if you DO try to reconnoiter and Durin's Bane (or Orcs) do get you, then you can kiss your embassy to Elrond Bye-Bye.

And that last point is why I think using Gloin's embassy for a scouting trip to Moria would have been foolish. Send another group, maybe - but if asking Elrond's advice is so important (how often to DWARVES ask for advice) then don't risk the Embassy on such a perilous side-trip.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Related. What would be the way messagesmight be passed between
Moria and Erebor? By bird or dwarf? Perhaps passing men,
or, given the length of such a journey, dwarves taking messages to the Beornings
and then having them give it to a passing traveler to get to
Dale? And would it be a one- or two-way message sysem?

I can't see Dwarves passing important messages meant for other Dwarves in the hands of one of an alien race.

The ravens, such as Roäc son of Carc could have been an option. In The Hobbit, Roäc said his "people were few", but the ravens lived for more than 100 years, it was said, and under the protection of the new Kingdom Under the Mountain their numbers might have increased.

Then again, if that was the case, I'd wonder why Balin and Co. wouldn't have had a raven or two with them at Moria. If they had, the fate of the colony should have been brought back to Dáin by them.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Or perhaps the best, surest way would be to use rangers(both rangers and dwarves could be of service to the other
and want to keep on good terms).

I wouldn't think that likely due to the fact the Rangers seem to have mostly confined their activities west of the Mountains. Crossing the Mountains to act as errand boys for Dwarves also seems a bit below their pay grade, and would further have reduced the number of Rangers able to guard Bree and the Westlands.

Maybe after all it was just physically journeying Dwarves passing back and forth, possibly not even going all the way to Erebor or Moria, but meeting at pre-arranged places and times.
When the Moria lot didn't make a rendezvous 2 or 3 times in a row, that could have given Dáin a hint that they'd run into Durin's Bane and were beyond help or hope.