Oh the Humility! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Durelin · 10-31-2010, 08:30 PM

The subject of humility and having pride in humility (thus making you no longer humble, technically) always makes me think of Gawain and the Green Knight.

I guess you're getting into completely philosophical grounds to ask if someone can be humble without being aware that they are being humble. And if they are aware they are being humble, and know that it is valued...then they aren't humble anymore? Is it the action or the intent? (That over-simplyfies it, but I'm going with it)

I think in Tolkien it would be the action. Mnemo's analysis of Sam seems to suggest the importance of action over intent. Sam intended to serve Frodo to show his dedication, his strength, and his value as Frodo's 'servant.' His actions were praiseworthy, as he intended them to be. But that doesn't stop them from being praiseworthy or being humble -- he humbled himself to serve Frodo, as it was his desire to please (a base term) that encouraged him to do so.

This thread has also touched on a lot of definitions of humility, and I'm not about to define it, but I am going to suggest an ultimate act of humility in self-sacrifice.

Putting others before the self has already been touched on in this thread as a definition of humility. Self-sacrifice is of course epitomized in the literal sense of sacrificing your life. But the causes for which a person 'makes the ultimate sacrifice' can often be described as prideful, or at least based in pride.

Boromir is probably one of the first characters that comes to mind when one thinks of pride. He is driven by pride much of the time. And in the end that pride leads to self-sacrifice, through which he is humbled even before Aragorn.

But there is another side to Boromir. That of shame. Boromir humbles himself to self-sacrifice only after he is shamed after trying to take the Ring from Frodo -- he recognizes his weakness and is shamed. (As it could be said Gawain only learns true humility after he experiences great shame.)

So is shame necessary for humility? And is pride necessary for shame? Well, maybe not *necessary*...

(I did this from memory and looking at...*gasp* chapter summaries to make sure I remembered things correctly...I don't have the books with me and it's been a while...)

10-31-2010, 08:30 PM	#11
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	The subject of humility and having pride in humility (thus making you no longer humble, technically) always makes me think of Gawain and the Green Knight. I guess you're getting into completely philosophical grounds to ask if someone can be humble without being aware that they are being humble. And if they are aware they are being humble, and know that it is valued...then they aren't humble anymore? Is it the action or the intent? (That over-simplyfies it, but I'm going with it) I think in Tolkien it would be the action. Mnemo's analysis of Sam seems to suggest the importance of action over intent. Sam intended to serve Frodo to show his dedication, his strength, and his value as Frodo's 'servant.' His actions were praiseworthy, as he intended them to be. But that doesn't stop them from being praiseworthy or being humble -- he humbled himself to serve Frodo, as it was his desire to please (a base term) that encouraged him to do so. This thread has also touched on a lot of definitions of humility, and I'm not about to define it, but I am going to suggest an ultimate act of humility in self-sacrifice. Putting others before the self has already been touched on in this thread as a definition of humility. Self-sacrifice is of course epitomized in the literal sense of sacrificing your life. But the causes for which a person 'makes the ultimate sacrifice' can often be described as prideful, or at least based in pride. Boromir is probably one of the first characters that comes to mind when one thinks of pride. He is driven by pride much of the time. And in the end that pride leads to self-sacrifice, through which he is humbled even before Aragorn. But there is another side to Boromir. That of shame. Boromir humbles himself to self-sacrifice only after he is shamed after trying to take the Ring from Frodo -- he recognizes his weakness and is shamed. (As it could be said Gawain only learns true humility after he experiences great shame.) So is shame necessary for humility? And is pride necessary for shame? Well, maybe not necessary... (I did this from memory and looking at...gasp chapter summaries to make sure I remembered things correctly...I don't have the books with me and it's been a while...)