Istari and their staves

[Galadriel55]

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

I think that the magic that anyone does comes from the willpower of that person. Incantations and staffs are probably just used to help direct the power to the correct action. However, people with inner power don't need staffs. If you define magician, you'd get someone with supernatural abilities. Galadriel does "magic" when she works her mirror. And she says that she can make the nirror show whatever she wants with her will. Aragorn enables the Grey Company to make the trip from the Path of the Dead through entire Gondor without much rest with his will, as is noted on a few occasions.
This would mean that wizards will still have their power if their staffs are broken, but it would be harder for the to release it to specific things.

By the way, I like the analogy with the policemen.

[Ghanberryghan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

I think that the magic that anyone does comes from the willpower of that person. Incantations and staffs are probably just used to help direct the power to the correct action. However, people with inner power don't need staffs. If you define magician, you'd get someone with supernatural abilities. Galadriel does "magic" when she works her mirror. And she says that she can make the nirror show whatever she wants with her will. Aragorn enables the Grey Company to make the trip from the Path of the Dead through entire Gondor without much rest with his will, as is noted on a few occasions.
This would mean that wizards will still have their power if their staffs are broken, but it would be harder for the to release it to specific things.

By the way, I like the analogy with the policemen.

Oh thank you!
But yea I was always under the impression that if the staffs were needed for any reason, then them being broken would mean that they were unable to do certain things IE No longer able to shoot fireballs, but stall able to use words of command.

[Galadriel55]

So maybe the staffs are used to direct the power? To release it only on certain things/actions?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The wizards have the bodies of old men; the staffs are to help them walk, and to lean on.

[Bêthberry]

Given the general attitude towards power (and authority) which LotR explores, I'm constantly bemused at how often questions of power come up in Middle-earth discussions. Must be some kind of magical after-effect of all that gaming.

[radagastly]

The wizards have the bodies of old men; the staffs are to help them walk, and to lean on.

They're certainly an appropriate accessory to the "costume" of old men in which they were clothed. I get the impression from the three wizards that we actually meet (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast) that none of them actually were infirm enough genuinely to need them, however.

They were certainly a badge of office, though a rather impractical one, I think. How annoying it must be to have to drag around a big stick your whole life, rather than just pinning a tin star to your wizard robe and forgetting about it. They had to be carried, grasped in the hand, generally paid attention. That was their main purpose, I think. To focus the wizards attention. The staffs came from Aman, and are therefore a reminder of where the wizards came from, and why they are in Middle Earth, what their mission is supposesd to be. As such, they would naturally help the wizard to focus their mind on the innate power each of them posesses. I don't think the staffs were imbued with any "magical" properties. They were special for their artifact value. For example, a couple of the pearls in Queen Elizabeth's crown are known to have been worn by Elizabeth the first. Other parts of her state robes have each their own story. Do you wonder how she feels, on state occasions, garbed in all that history? I think these staffs had a similar significance to the wizards.

[Galadriel55]

So what you're saying is that the staves maintain the connection of istari to Valinor, which is closer than the other Valinor-ME connections?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by radagastly

They're certainly an appropriate accessory to the "costume" of old men in which they were clothed. I get the impression from the three wizards that we actually meet (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast) that none of them actually were infirm enough genuinely to need them, however.

Indeed not, and I seem to recall Tolkien explicitely saying (in some place that eludes my researching patience right now) that they appeared 'old but hale', or something very much like that. Still, if you make a habit of journeying long distances on foot (like all the Istari seem to have done in their early years, though only Gandalf kept it up later, as far as we're told), a staff is an invaluable prop, even if you're reasonably fit.

I like Ghanberryghan's idea of the staves as badges of office very much, and this, too:

Originally Posted by radagastly

The staffs came from Aman, and are therefore a reminder of where the wizards came from, and why they are in Middle Earth, what their mission is supposed to be. As such, they would naturally help the wizard to focus their mind on the innate power each of them posesses

...and thus facilitate their use of that power. If I may throw another analogy into the discussion, maybe the staves were also like musical instruments - e.g. take the guitar away from somebody like Jimi Hendrix or Frank Zappa, and they can't play certain kinds of chords and solos without it, but they've still got their musical talent and can still sing or perhaps make do with a banjo or ukulele, or maybe they're even skilled at another instrument like the piano as well, only they can't express themselves in the way that comes most naturally to them.
Or maybe, now I think of it, it was exactly the other way round, and the staves were for those things that weren't personal to the respective wizard. For every one of them, there was some special area of work they were best in - for Gandalf, I'd say it was inspiring others with courage and wisdom; for Saruman, all kinds of 'technological' lore and skill (in which I'd include his manipulations of others' minds through the use of his Voice); for Radagast, communication with animals; and for the Blue Duo, we don't know. These things, I think, were unique and innate to each of them and not connected with the staves at all; whereas most of the things we see Gandalf do with his staff (like his fireworks against the wargs under Caradhras, or the breaking of the bridge) were of a more tactical or 'energetic' nature, drawing on the elemental power he shared with all other Ainur, and in the use of which the Istari were restricted by their orders. (Maybe they were even given the staves, among other reasons, as part of their camouflage, so that in situations when they were forced to use this kind of power before witnesses it would be attributed to the tool rather than the person?) [/wild brainstorming]

All in all, I think the staves were both, badges and instruments, with authority being a crucial point.
Nice thread, Ghanberryghan - not the first on wizards' staves, but provoked some interesting thoughts. Welcome to the Downs!


PS. -

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Given the general attitude towards power (and authority) which LotR explores, I'm constantly bemused at how often questions of power come up in Middle-earth discussions. Must be some kind of magical after-effect of all that gaming.

This, too. That's why I love all those "Who was more powerful, Bill the Pony or Fatty Lumpkin" threads so much.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Moreover, Gandalf points his staff at the things he wants to set on fire.
And where did he get a new staff from after he broke his on the bridge of Moria?

After Gandalf is sent back, Gwaihir takes him to Lorien, where Galadriel gives him newly washed white robes and I'd imagine where he also got a new staff

With the power of the wizards' staves I've always thought Hama made an interesting comment:

"The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age," said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned.~The King of the Golden Hall

It is an ordinary (at least looks ordinary) wooden staff, but Hama adds an interesting point, "in the hand of a wizard." There is no power in a staff, other than being used as a prop, but in the hand of a wizard, they can be used as ways to focus their power. Like how Gandalf uses his staff to break the bridge of Khazad-dum.

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke,...~The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Handy tool to break and smite things. Surely Gandalf wouldn't want to power-punch the bridge.

[Alcuin]

If a wizard’s staff from Aman was a reminder that he also came from Aman, then Gandalf’s breaking Saruman’s staff suddenly makes sense: his connection to home was broken. He’d been offered a chance to repent and be redeemed, but he refused. Saruman himself broke his real connection to Valinor; Gandalf’s breaking his staff only made him aware of what he had done. That would explain how Saruman might still trap a Nazgûl at Orthanc, how he could cozen Treebeard despite all he’d done to the ents and the fact that Treebeard actually understood his purposes, but without that connection back to Valinor, he was increasingly unfocused. When Gandalf’s body was killed, his spirit wandered but remained intact; when Saruman’s body was killed, his spirit was dissipated.

It also throws light on how Radagast failed in his mission. Radagast never became evil: Gandalf calls him “the honest Radagast”, and it was through Radagast’s interventions that Gwaihir rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. But Radagast “became enamored of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men”. (Unfinished Tales, “Istari”) Gandalf’s description at the Council of Elrond of his meeting with him portrays Radagast as frightened and unfocused, as if he had forgotten his connection to Valinor and so lost his connection to his mission in Middle-earth.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ghanberryghan

But yes, just like instruments, you could pretend there were three musicians, one who plays guitar, one who plays violin and one who plays clarinet. To show that they were musicians they each carry a music stand. See the similarities? They can use their stands to help them play music (help them cast spells) but without a stand a musician might be able to play what he remembers on his own instrument without the use of a stand (Guitarist remembers songs which he can play without a music stand) which could be like Saruman using the power of his voice which he had.

Nice analogy, I like it. Besides, I just love this little imaginary dialogue:
"So why did the Istari carry staves?" - "Because music stands would've been to cumbersome."

Originally Posted by Boro

It is an ordinary (at least looks ordinary) wooden staff, but Hama adds an interesting point, "in the hand of a wizard." There is no power in a staff, other than being used as a prop, but in the hand of a wizard, they can be used as ways to focus their power. Like how Gandalf uses his staff to break the bridge of Khazad-dum.

This is a good point, I think. Like an instrument (or a music stand) doesn't have any power in the hands of somebody who can't play, but in hands of a virtuoso, wow!

[Ghanberryghan]

Hmmm it does make sense having the staff also serve as a focus or connection between the wizard and Valinor. That would explain why Saruman didn't seem very different without his staff than he was with it, and why Gandalf never lost any power when his was destroyed in Moria.
I always have wondered how exactly Saruman would use his power against the Nazgul in Orthanc though. Could it mean that the tower itself could serve as a focus, much like his staff? Orthanc was built by the numenoreans so it would make sense if it gave Saruman a connection to Valinor.

[Khazad-dûm]

Hey I don't know if someones said this already I tried to read every post but there are a lot and some quite long.

I think that the staff's are only status symbols in there order and that their power and magical ability is because they are Maiar

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Khazad-dûm

Hey I don't know if someones said this already I tried to read every post but there are a lot and some quite long.
I think that the staff's are only status symbols in there order

This is kinda the thread's main idea...

Originally Posted by Khazad-dûm

and that their power and magical ability is because they are Maiar

Yes. An example would be Melian - I don't recall reading about any staff, but she was still able to protect Doriath and do less noticeable "magic". I think it is marvelous how people can always read some message in her eyes...
A bit off topic there. Sorry!