Riddles in the Downs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 11-26-2010, 02:20 PM

The riddle also reminds me of Feanor.
Twilight - Miriel was born in ME when there were only stars
Her path did end by western shores - she died in Aman, ie in the West
After glory came the loss - Feanor brought the glory of Valinor to an end, and loss could refer to either the Trees, the Noldor going away, the dtolen Silmarili, or something else that I can't think of at the moment.
Close to the King was she of late - Miriel was Finwe's wife
I have been thrown into the war - Feanor started the war
in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall - I don't know how that works
when Men of Light have earned his hate - I don't know how this fits either, since Men didn't exist yet

I've been a friend to all the guards
of light - of peace - well, he was friendly to the Valar once, and he stored light in the Silmarili that are very hard to break - he put a "guarding wall" around the light
till I betray'd
them in the vicious nightly raid - he attacked the Teleri
when fear was piercing all their hearts - when Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwe
They came and went - I have remained - the Silarili still exist, although they are separated.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-26-2010, 02:58 PM

Unfortunately, yes, as you said yourself, there are things which wouldn't work. Nonetheless, a brave attempt. Also a note to the last verse, which I might bring to your attention (and perhaps it might be helpful for you if I say that), in your interpretation "I have remained" would suddenly mean switching from Fëanor to the Silmarils as his creation, but I can assure you that "I have remained" refers still directly and exactly to the "speaker" of the riddle.

But go on, go on, even unsuccessful attempts bring you closer to finding the answer...

Galadriel55 · 11-26-2010, 07:28 PM

OK, then!
If the riddle is referring to a place, like Pitch said, I'd say it's Drengist, because it begins in Dor Lomen - the land of twilight, and it flows to the western shore of Beleriand.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-27-2010, 07:18 AM

Okay, care to elaborate more about what exactly are all the events, Kings, Men, guards etc. in such case? Then I could show you more clearly why it is wrong

But no, that was just a remark, it is simply not the right answer. Note at least one thing: if it was indeed Drengist, then if you look at the riddle, it actually says "my mother" was born in twilight, and likewise it was her path that ended by western shores, so - if it is Drengist that begins in Dor-Lómin and ends in the west, as you say, then Drengist would actually have to be the mother, and now the question is, who is the "child"? Because that is the answer we are looking for.

But anyway, I think you are somehow hovering around the right path to find the answer...

Galadriel55 · 11-29-2010, 04:34 PM

just a free association without any reasoning behind it...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-29-2010, 05:01 PM

Nope, not him either.

All right, a hint (or sort of, a suggestion): I recommend focusing on the first two posts you and Pitch have made, there in some of the speculations you were aiming in the quite right direction. Also be aware of the thing I said when you guessed Drengist, remembering that we are looking for the child of the mother, not really for the mother herself (although of course it is related...)

Galadriel55 · 12-01-2010, 05:31 PM

Either the thing or the mother is a geographical location/feature, and that's the farthest that I got to. I have no clue how a place can betray, unless its something like someone good who's hiding being revealed or a ship going against the current of a river might be late... or something in the same spirit. I can't think of anything like that, though, that would remain. Any ideas, Pitchwife?

11-26-2010, 02:20 PM	#1
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,525	just more nonesense The riddle also reminds me of Feanor. Twilight - Miriel was born in ME when there were only stars Her path did end by western shores - she died in Aman, ie in the West After glory came the loss - Feanor brought the glory of Valinor to an end, and loss could refer to either the Trees, the Noldor going away, the dtolen Silmarili, or something else that I can't think of at the moment. Close to the King was she of late - Miriel was Finwe's wife I have been thrown into the war - Feanor started the war in blood I've seen the Dark One's fall - I don't know how that works when Men of Light have earned his hate - I don't know how this fits either, since Men didn't exist yet I've been a friend to all the guards of light - of peace - well, he was friendly to the Valar once, and he stored light in the Silmarili that are very hard to break - he put a "guarding wall" around the light till I betray'd them in the vicious nightly raid - he attacked the Teleri when fear was piercing all their hearts - when Morgoth destroyed the Trees and killed Finwe They came and went - I have remained - the Silarili still exist, although they are separated. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

11-26-2010, 02:58 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Unfortunately, yes, as you said yourself, there are things which wouldn't work. Nonetheless, a brave attempt. Also a note to the last verse, which I might bring to your attention (and perhaps it might be helpful for you if I say that), in your interpretation "I have remained" would suddenly mean switching from Fëanor to the Silmarils as his creation, but I can assure you that "I have remained" refers still directly and exactly to the "speaker" of the riddle. But go on, go on, even unsuccessful attempts bring you closer to finding the answer... __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-26-2010, 07:28 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,525	OK, then! If the riddle is referring to a place, like Pitch said, I'd say it's Drengist, because it begins in Dor Lomen - the land of twilight, and it flows to the western shore of Beleriand. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

11-27-2010, 07:18 AM	#4
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Okay, care to elaborate more about what exactly are all the events, Kings, Men, guards etc. in such case? Then I could show you more clearly why it is wrong But no, that was just a remark, it is simply not the right answer. Note at least one thing: if it was indeed Drengist, then if you look at the riddle, it actually says "my mother" was born in twilight, and likewise it was her path that ended by western shores, so - if it is Drengist that begins in Dor-Lómin and ends in the west, as you say, then Drengist would actually have to be the mother, and now the question is, who is the "child"? Because that is the answer we are looking for. But anyway, I think you are somehow hovering around the right path to find the answer... __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-29-2010, 04:34 PM	#5
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,525	maglor? just a free association without any reasoning behind it... __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

11-29-2010, 05:01 PM	#6
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Nope, not him either. All right, a hint (or sort of, a suggestion): I recommend focusing on the first two posts you and Pitch have made, there in some of the speculations you were aiming in the quite right direction. Also be aware of the thing I said when you guessed Drengist, remembering that we are looking for the child of the mother, not really for the mother herself (although of course it is related...) __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

12-01-2010, 05:31 PM	#7
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,525	Either the thing or the mother is a geographical location/feature, and that's the farthest that I got to. I have no clue how a place can betray, unless its something like someone good who's hiding being revealed or a ship going against the current of a river might be late... or something in the same spirit. I can't think of anything like that, though, that would remain. Any ideas, Pitchwife? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera