Can o' worms...

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Good stuff. I had a very long, insightful conversation with Fea months back about if there were elitist and rascist undertones in the Lord of the Rings. We sort of discovered when you first read the books, if you were young and early teens it goes completely unnoticed. You read the story, as it was meant to be read, to be enjoyed. The battles, the mastery and flow of language, the heroes. Then as we get older, read it again (and again ) , it seems like we lose that first-time reading experience. We are possibly reading for meaning.

Just speaking for myself and what I said in the convo. When you look too much into it, the Numenoreans being the "pure" race, teaching and instructing the inferior and darker races. The darker-skinned Men who joined Sauron, the Black Riders...etc. You can look at it and make it out to be about race, but it's really not about black and white at all. It's for me, light and unlight. Ungoliant's darkness was described as unlight.

In the end, it's over-complicating the story, by searching for meaning, instead of enjoyment. What is Tolkien trying to say here? What does he mean by the fair-skinned Elves, with the "Light of Aman" in their faces and the dark Moriquendi?

Many, most threads on the Downs concern themselves with questions of what is meant by this phrase, how to interpret the use of certain words or how to reconcile x passage with y excerpt.

We analyse, we interpret, we argue for and against any number of topics. I doubt this takes away from anyone's enjoyment of the text. I therefore don't see why, if the question of race is raised, all of a sudden it is a matter of "over complicating" the story. I can understand not agreeing with a point of view and saying why you disagree but where is the "over complication"? It seems to me a matter for interpretation just like anything else.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Morwen

We analyse, we interpret, we argue for and against any number of topics. I doubt this takes away from anyone's enjoyment of the text. I therefore don't see why, if the question of race is raised, all of a sudden it is a matter of "over complicating" the story. I can understand not agreeing with a point of view and saying why you disagree but where is the "over complication"? It seems to me a matter for interpretation just like anything else.

I wasn't intending to imply if we read it for meaning than you can't enjoy it just the same. What I meant was, while talking to another member, we were trying to figure out how come when we first read it as young teens, why didn't we catch any elitist or rascist undertones?

I believe it is because when I first read it, I wanted simply a good story, I wanted to be entertained. That is the basic heart of any story, to be enjoyed. Of course authors weave in their own personal experiences and messages, but that requires us to look for it. Not that reading for meaning, or what the author is trying to say, is less enjoyable, but rather a different experience from when you first read it.

And yes, at times if we are looking for meaning and analyzing, we can beat on things that just aren't there. As readers we make what we want from the story, and draw from our own experiences, but we should separate that from what Tolkien's messages and beliefs were in the story.

[davem]

More from the Grauniad http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/...obbit-race-row. Apart from a nice quote-

The Shire, after all, was Tolkien's version of a sort of pre-Edwardian rural England: stuffed with hairy-footed, pipe-smoking, moleskin-trouser-wearing, unworldly, pig-ignorant yokels who dwelt in cosy holes in the ground surrounded by overfilled furniture, decorative knick-knacks and back issues of The Hobbit Reader's Digest. It was a vision that was retro even when put together; and The Hobbit was published 11 years before the Windrush put in at Tilbury docks.

It got me wondering - will we now see 'Hobbits of color' (notice I used to American spelling there, as I hold every single American personally responsible for the existence of Political Correctness) just because of this issue - will the Shire now be filled with a glorious racial rainbow simply so the producers can show the world that they are color blind? (Same with the Elves & Dwarves?). After all, they now have something to PROVE, don't they? And of course, you will now have folk of all races turning up for the auditions - you may even find that they have to audition specifically for 'colored' actors to play extras if they don't have any at the moment.

What's also interesting, for all the comments made by Jackson & the Producers about there being no colour bar on potential cast members, that every single cast announcement we've had has been about white actors being cast in the major roles.....

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

It got me wondering - will we now see 'Hobbits of color' (notice I used to American spelling there, as I hold every single American personally responsible for the existence of Political Correctness) just because of this issue - will the Shire now be filled with a glorious racial rainbow simply so the producers can show the world that they are color blind?

Don't point fingers, Davem. You Brits decided to have Sharia law courts, and thus subverted your own judicial system in the name of political correctness.

This whole can o' worms is as indigestible as the aforementioned prepackaged annelids. Aside from parsing out text into indecipherable bits of evidentiary vagueness and monosyllabic minutiae, Tolkien is quite clear on the racial make-up of Hobbits, their place in the prehistoric Northwestern corner of Europe, and their pre-Edwardian proclivities.

Personally, I have no problem with an actor of African descent playing a Hobbit. Just use make-up to present him as an Anglo-featured halfling. Lawrence Olivier had to wear face paint to portray Othello, which is only correct, as Shakespeare presents Othello as a Moorish general in the army of Venice. If it was okay for Sir Larry, it should be okay for an actor with 15 seconds of screentime.

[davem]

Bit more on the issue http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10355/1112307-153.stm

All very interesting. A black Heimdall in the Thor movie is a bit of a surprise to me (recalling my teenage years reading Marvel UK's reprints of the US comics). Mind you, this new approach will at least open up the roles of Luke Cage, The Falcon & The Black Panther to white actors....

Any truth in the rumour that the White Council is now to be called the Rainbow Alliance & will go into battle to the strains of Blue Mink's 'Melting Pot'? Altogether now:

"What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough to take the world and all its got
And keep it stirring for a hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score"

I'm sure if that was translated into Sindarin it would be truly beautiful....

[Morwen]

What? No mention of the casting controversies for "Prince of Persia" or "The Last Airbender"?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Morwen

What? No mention of the casting controversies for "Prince of Persia" or "The Last Airbender"?

Isn't that rather like a tree falling in the woods and wondering if it makes a sound? Can there be a controversy if no one has watched the movie?