The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Aiwendil]

To transport the picture in the fullest version we can get?

But if, as we agree, the fact that the tower was taken by assault is already inherent in GA, then I don't see how adding the sentence from QS makes the account any fuller.

If you really feel that adding the word "assault" from QS is critical, though, perhaps we could make the slightly smaller change:

RB-DB-32 <GA {and}And his hosts broke through and besieged the fortress of {Inglor}[Finrod], {Minnas-tirith}[Minas-Tirith] upon {Tolsirion}[Tol Sirion]. And this they took <QS by assault> after bitter fighting> for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it;

Some further comments, up to §149:

§144: Where QS has "And Morgoth came", GA has "Then Morgoth came", beginning a new paragraph. I would follow GA in this, both because it is later and because we have taken the fuller account of Fingolfin's challenge that immediately precedes it in GA.

. . . For I would see thy craven face.'
Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold

We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:

and sounding a challenge upon his {silver} horn he called Morgoth himself to come forth to combat

RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleam[u]ing[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.

§146: For a change, let me be the one to suggest an addition from to the text to provide more vivid detail! Here our text as it stands is straight from QS, but I would add something from GA:

. . . Yet {with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot} <GA {I}in his last throe Fingolfin pinned the foot of his enemy to the earth> with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Here GA offers a detail lacking in QS (also, this more precise description obviates the erroneous impression I have seen people take from the passage, that Morgoth's foot was actually severed).

§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:

. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .

[Findegil]

RB-DB-32: Yes, my feeling that "assault" is a justified clarification. And your proposed sentence works well for me.

§144:
I agree to the change form "And Morgoth came." to "Then Morgoth came." including a new §.

This might be a small matter, but I would rather keep the "silver" at the first place and delet it in the other one. In the first place it corrosponds very nice to the "brazen gate".

RB-DF-04: I agree. We will eleiminate that addition.

§146 / RB-DF-04.5: That is a nice addition. I agreeto take it.

§147 / RB-DF-07.5: I agree that we should mention Gondolin here. But I think we should make the addition a bit diffrent:

There was lamentation in HithlumRB-DF-07.5 and Gondolin when the fall of Fingolfin became known; <GA , for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor ...>

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

After we skipt the Balrogs from the host of Sauron that toke Tol Sirion, what do we do with the Balrogs in the rest of the battle?

In my oppinion, we should keep them. It seems more then logical that Balrogs were the leaders of Morgoth' hosts. In the east the force was led by Glaurung. But who was the leader in the west? Not Sauron, because the Western host still held Fingolfin pinned in the Ered Wethrin while Sauron took Tol Sirion. I think that Gothmog is the natrual choice. And thus 'neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome{,} Hithlum'.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

My first post, please be nice ;-)

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

We must guard against the danger of redundancy when we combine material from QS and GA. A small example is found here. In QS, when Fingolfin makes his challenge, he sounds his "horn"; in GA, it is here called a "silver horn". A few sentences later, QS mentions "the shrill music of the silver horn of Fingolfin". So in each text, the detail that the horn is silver occurs only once; however, since we take the first part of the paragraph from GA and the second part from QS, the detail shows up twice in our version as it stands, which seems superfluous. So I would remove the word "silver" at one of the two instances:

Wouldn't it be more sensible to remove the other instance of "silver":

Originally Posted by QS

But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the {silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband

First, so we can keep the later source more intact; second, because the scene describes how Morgoth and his host perceive Fingolfins challenge "from below": They hear the horn's "shrill music", they cannot see that it is "silver", while in the first occurrence of the horn, Fingolfin's perspective is described, where the visual part would be to the fore.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

RB-DF-04: It seems to me that adding "withstood him" from GA is disruptive to the prose, since it separates the "it" (in "gleam[u]ing[\u] beneath it like a star") from its antecedent. I don't think the addition is valuable enough to warrant that kind of disruption (clearly, he withstands Morgoth in QS already), so I would leave it out.

I agree with this, but find it sad that by completely following the QS here we also lose the imagery of

Originally Posted by GA

he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree"

and the (maybe a bit obvious) information that Morgoth's shield is "black". How about this:

Originally Posted by QS

And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, <GA like a storm above a lonely tree,> iron-crowned, and his vast <GA black> shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.

Also, is the information that

Originally Posted by GA

the cries of Morgoth echoed in the north-lands

insignificant or redundant enough to leave it out? How does

Originally Posted by QS

seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish that <QS echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

sound? Not very good, eh?

§147: In taking this section from QS, we miss the statement in GA that there was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought news of Fingolfin's fall, because many of the people were of Fingolfin's house. However, I fear it would be bad prose to say have "There was lamentation in Gondolin when . . ." followed, just a few sentences later, by "There was lamentation in Hithlum when . . .". Perhaps, then, we could justify combining the sentences, with some slight editorial work:

. . . There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known, and in Gondolin also <GA, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house>; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor . . .

Stylistically, that's not very nice, as the information about the "lamentation in Gondolin" is clearly given at this point of the Grey Annals because "Thorondor brought the tidings", just as the information about the "lamentation in Hithlum" in QS serves as an introduction to Fingon being the new High-king.

If both statements should be combined, I would rather have

[QUOTE=GA]
There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house; and <QS in Hithlum > also; but Fingon...

[QUOTE]
Of course, that's a quite ambiguous sentence. Maybe it would be best to keep the two statements separate and alter the second slightly after the description of Fingon's feelings in QS (is that allowed?):

There was lamentation in Gondolin ... In Hithlum also, there was great sorrow

[Findegil]

Welcome to this part of the downs Ekimeniso!

We try to be nice to anybody who takes part in our discussion. We much to seldom have guests or new participants.

RB-DF-03.5: Two times 'silver' in §144:
I suggested them same, but your reasons are even more confincing them mine.

RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.
But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).

RB-DF-04.5: the eoching cries in the northland:
I agree that this might be helpfull to hold, since it makes it more clear were Morogoths host fell upon their faces.

So we would get:

Then Morgoth came.> That was the last time in these wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might RB-DF-02 {is}<LQ1 was> greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he RB-DF-03 {knows}<LQ1 knew> fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of the RB-DF-03.5{silver} horn of Fingolfin and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and grey and deadly. Then Morgoth hurled aloft as a mace Grond, the hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth RB-DF-04.2 {with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry} <GA seven times with his sword; and the cries> of anguish that Morgoth gave <GA echoed in the north-lands>, whereat the rocks shivered, and the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay.

RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:
Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:

... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> Morgoth RB-DF-06 {goes ever halt of one foot since that day, and the pain of his wounds cannot}<LQ2 went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not> be healed; and in his face is the scar that Thorondor made.
§148 RB-DF-07 <GA Now Rochallor had stayed beside the king until the end, but the wolves of Angband assailed him, and he escaped from them because of his great swiftness, and ran at last to Hithlum, and broke his heart and died.> There was lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known; but Fingon took the kingship of the Noldor, and he maintained still his realm behind the Shadowy Mountains in the North. ...

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

Originally Posted by Findegil

RB-DF-04b: The image of the lonley tree in the storm and the blackness of the shield:
About the black shield: to name the shield black when in the next moment it is discribed as 'sable unblazoned' is redundant enough. The slight diffrence does not warrant a change.

I actually agree.

Originally Posted by Findegil

But the image of the lonley tree is diffrent. I am not confinced that it is necessary, but I will give it a try to incooperate it a bit more fluent (see below).

and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned. RB-DF-04b<GA But Fingolfin withstood him, though he towered above the Elven-king like a storm above a lonely tree>, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a{ storm} cloud.

That's better than my suggestion, I think, but still a bit dodgy, as the contrasting description of the two contrahents going from Morgoth to Fingolfin is now repeated and (imho) thus loses some of its power (and there is also the redundancy of "tower" and "towered").

Maybe my English skills are too limited to formulate a better amalgam of the two sources in this case, but I tried this:

and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a <GAstorm> cloud <GA above a lonely tree>.

What do you think? Of course we're mixing the metaphors quite loosely here. And maybe there are just too many images - the tower, the storm over the tree, the cloud over the star - and the one from the GA has to go. I'm not sure.
RB-DF-07.5: The lamentation in Gondolin:

Originally Posted by Findegil

Probably we should bring that in much ealier. Turgon learned about tthe death of Fingolfin when Thorondor brought the body to the Echoriad, but Fingon learned the same from the return of Rochalor without rider I would guess. So what about this:

... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over him. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. RB-DF-07.5 <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.>

Of course, that's more or less where the first "lamentation" stood in GA - after the building of the cairn. But then we're back at the point were Aiwendil suggested to avoid the recurrence of "there was lamentation"; maybe this can't be avoided. Logically, it would make sense to have Thorondor bring the tidings and the Gondothlim mourning before Turgon can come and build the cairn - am I having a déjà vu or was there some discussion somewhere on this forum about this already? Anyway, thus:

... And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the North upon the hidden valley of Gondolin. <GA There was lamentation in Gondolin when Thorondor brought the tidings, for many of the people of the hidden city were Noldor of Fingolfin's house.> [And] Turgon coming built a high cairn over {him} Fingolfin. Neither Orc nor Balrog dared ever after to pass over the mount of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin.

Naturally, the course of events is debatable and I'm also fine with your way.

Greetings