WW: LXXXV - The Lost Philosophers of Maiar

[Kath]

Agan sticks to a point once she's made it. I agreed with her about the Seer and I don't think talking about it is a problem. You've got to think about it. I do find what she says about Nessa to be a bit odd. She says looking at the maths could be seen as wolvish yet she did the same thing in that very post.

Shasta wants to suspect Pitch but thinks thats 'Lottie' reasoning. Forgive me, it's been a while. Is this a bad thing? It's Day 1, you can't have that much reasoning. Says he has no read on Rikae and sally which faintly worries him.

Someone said Lottie didn't really seem to have suspicions. She does have worries about sally, Mac (ish) and while she can see the potential suspicion of Pitch she doesn't want to focus on it as it's based on what others said. On the other hand, she exonerates a fair number of people: Agan, Kitanna, skip and Shasta. With as much reasoning as can be had this early!

Boro says he doesn't see the reasons behind suspecting Pitch. First one so far.

Kitanna doesn't like Pitch's 'polite' game or Rikae or sally.

Blind Guardian says she suspects Ozban for a comment about Shasta. Fairly sure that was based on an unfortunate Day 1 bandwagon in a previous game and was intended as a joke.

Inzil suspects Pitch as well for his first post feeling 'forced'. Given the rest of the reasoning that's come up this is a bit shoddy. Suggests Cailin could be a cobbler but is more likely just limited by RL.

Mac says it's unlikely for there really to be that many hints flying about. I actually agree. With all the wolves alive they don't really care about the Cobbler. And currently the Cobbler hasn't more knowledge of the wolves than we do. So hinting is going to be pretty limited at the moment.

Nessa defends Pitch and suggests Rikae knows something we don't. Weird half hint at Rikae being Gited there, especially as that's pretty much just how Rikae is!

Rikae says due to the reactions that have gone on that she's pretty ok with Pitch and less so with Inzil and Lottie. I can see what she means about Inzil, not so convinced about Lottie.

Mac thinks Agan is the cobbler because she was the first to mention it and did so very early on.

Ozban says Inzil is unreadable and finds that worrying. Why specifically Inzil? Also questions Nessa for suggesting Rikae might be Gifted.

Legate thinks Lottie might be the cobbler. Fair reasoning behind it but it is the kind of reasoning that can also be explained as 'Day 1 confusion'.

elronds-daughter arrives and agrees that Pitch is suspicious based on a quick read through of the thread, yet requires more time to think on Agan or Legate/Lottie. Hmm.

Greenie finds Agan suspicious. Thinks the way Nessa defended Pitch was odd, which I agree with.

Agan has some interesting suspicions about Mac and skip. Says she might vote for them or for quiet players. Do I count toDay Agan?

Shasta thinks Mac was making too much out of Agan's post. I kind of agree as I'm not finding Agan that suspicious. Likes Legate due to what he writes about Lottie. Again, the reasoning for Lottie does look pretty odd to me as I've not played recently but hey if everyone else is finding it odd maybe it's just me.

wilwa starts off with complaining that we haven't talked enough, but then complains that we've talked about things we don't need to talk about. Huh. Which is it? Talk about nothing or talk about something at least! Exonerates Pitch and mentions potential suspicion of Agan. Basically just one weird post.

Ha, Rikae agrees with me about wilwa. Is this a first?

Ozban is suspicious of sally and Agan a little as well. Wants to hear more from sally. Doesn't everyone?

Valier doesn't think Pitch suspicious, but worries about Rikae because she did suspect Pitch and then voted otherwise. Rikae did follow through and explain her change of mind though.

Pitch has a fair point that while people kept talking about it being vital to catch wolves there seems to have been some strange consensus to focus more on the Cobbler. If Agan is evil then well done her for that!

Ha, sally, if it helps 'disgusting' is Lommy's favourite word. She's pretty worried about skip for seeming to try and muffle the Seer.

Valier is on wilwa's side about leaving the Seer alone to get on with it. Fair enough, I just don't see the problem with throwing out possibilities whether they've thought of them already or not.

Votes:
Kitanna --> Pitch (for trying to look helpful but not being)
Legate --> Lottie (as a suspected cobbler)
Rikae --> wilwa (evil masquerading as innocent)
Inzil --> Nessa (for trying to look helpful)
Shasta --> Lottie (for Legate's reasons)

Back in a few with thoughts and a vote.

[Kath]

Oh and cross-posted since the end of page 3.

[Kath]

Cailín -> Aganzir
Kitanna -> Pitchie
Legate -> Lottie
Rikae -> wilwa
Zil -> Nessa
Shasta -> Lottie2
Boro -> Zil
sally -> Pitch2
Ozban -> Nessa2
wilwa -> sally
Pitch -> Nessa3

Well I've said I won't vote Nessa and I'll stick with that, though I can certainly see why people are finding her suspicious.

My vote goes to:

++INZIL

And that's it from me.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Kath

wilwa starts off with complaining that we haven't talked enough

Woah, I never said that, I said people shouldn't have still been talking about the roles, I never said people weren't talking enough.

And this Nessa thing isn't sitting well with me. I sorta get the reasons, but they are rather flimsy (math might be an awful subject, but I don't think math = evil, and the Rikae thing, we're calling that "attempted Seer-outing", really?).

x'ed with Kath, defensive because people didn't like me agreeing with them, I think it was warranted

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Day One reasoning is, and ought to be, the slave of the passions.

[Nogrod]

"So, Sally got the most votes. What should we do now?" Aganzir asked.

"Pass me the hemlock" Sally said wryly.

"Are you an innocent or not?" asked the Blind Guardian confused.

"Of course I am, now get on with the poison. No muffins this time." Sally said defiantly.

"But hey, if you’re innocent, couldn’t we make a new vote? Let’s not kill an innocent!" Pitchwife gasped.

"Listen. We have decided that we should pick the one to die by a democratic vote. I accepted the terms as did you all others – so how could I try to shy away from a principle I had earlier accepted? I wouldn’t be calling for a re-vote if someone else had been chosen, so I can’t allow it in case I am picked myself. Is it that so hard to figure?" Sally answered grinning almost amusedly.

"But the consequences will be disasterous if we go on killing innocents!" yelled Nessa, "Look at the numbers!"

Sally took a deep breath. "Well how do you go picking another target? If I avoid the sentence, then I effectively turn it on someone else who might be just as innocent as I am. So wouldn’t I have wronged then? It is better to suffer wrong than to do wrong; it is not so important to live, but to live righteously. And to live righteously is to live under the principles of truth, goodness and beauty, right? And turning away from those principles, or doing outright wrong for personal gain, can not be righteous in any case, now can it?"

There was silence…


~*~

… which was broken by Melkor’s booming voice.


“So the stubborn one is the chosen one then? It is a pleasure to start with those strong in faith…”

“You don’t scare me Melkor. You’re just an imperfect and twisted copy of the Real – like all your “creation” are imperfect and twisted copies of the Real Creation! I’m more than happy to leave this cave of illusion behind me.” Sally called back standing straight.

“Tell me Satansaloser, are you just having hard times hearing things or do you have problems with the comprehension? You’re not going anywhere – nor are you staying. You are going to vanish, you are going to not-be.” Melkor grinned wide.

“You can do whatever you wish to my material form, but my soul is created by Iluvatar himself and is not for you to decide on. My soul will leave this cave and return to the cosmos – and what would be more delightful than being able to leave this dungeon and join the eternal joy and harmony of Being so lacking in this mockery of mere existence you have managed to put up here?”

“And feisty you are? As you wish, loser.”

Sally’s clothes took an instant fire and just lighted off and what was left from under them was nothing – but small heaps of dust and ashes on the floor of the dungeon where she had just stood.

“Whatever your creation, that is what you are now!” Melkor bellowed.

Slowly the two heaps started glowing and withering little by little. The horrified Maiar looked on as the heaps grew smaller and smaller finally vanishing with a puff. There was a thin line of bluish smoke that lingered for a short moment above where the heaps had been, but it did not go anywhere, but rather just dissolved into the air. There was a horrendous cry in the air and then it was all black and quiet.

Sally was the first innocent loser of the experiment.

The living:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs
elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense
Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework
Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water
Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows
Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative
wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures
Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world
Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs
Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos
Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity
Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams
A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming
Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways
Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences
Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances
Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers
Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space...
Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there
Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire
Ozban - Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries
Caílin - A spirit of secrecy
Kath - A spirit of nostalgy

The dead:

Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1

Night 2 has fallen.


Gifteds and baddies, your turn. The rest is silence.


Day2 starts normally in 24 hours (23 hours and 42 minutes to be more exact)

[Nogrod]

Eä Herald - Narvinyë 15, 7th age

We hope our readers have been enjoying our coverage of those astonishing events from the times immemorial thus far. All that you have seen or heard have been found in the latest archeological excavations into Utumno’s yet unexplored depths. Professor Nogrod, who has been leading the team of experts in the excavations, will now enlighten us about the records and their background.

Well, as horrendous the events were, luckily to the posterity Melkor appointed a few of his servants to record all of the experiment and – I guess because of his vanity – also the music he made with Sauron and other twisted spirits. But it is clear that what he really needed to record were the discussions the doomed Maiar went through during the following years as he was often busy elsewhere. That way he could listen to them afterwards to make his own deductions concerning how to rule and exploit the forthcoming hordes of mortal beings. In modern terms one could name his work as a kind of existentialist socio-psychological experiment of the functionalistic school of sociology.

So what you have been reading of late are transcriptions of the original tapes form the first decades of the experiment. We would have wished to publish the actual recordings but sadly because of the pending copyright issues - mainly regarding the estates of the deceased - the Eä Herald was understandably not willing to take the risk.

If the years confuse you, it should be told that Melkor had decided twenty years would be a long enough an interval for both talking and sleeping. Less than that might keep the Maiar too defiant and more than that could run the risk of ending up prematurely without giving any readable results.

Let us now join the experiment and fly to year 4560 Valian time to hear how the second “Day” of the experiment started.


~*~

The trapped Maiar woke up from their spellbound sleep when Melkor released them entering the dungeon. He didn’t seem to be in a good mood. Some even heard him hissing to himself something about a “sickening sickle” and “hating Varda”. But coming amidst the Maiar he collected himself and almost smiled.

“I have been listening to your discussions – and I do remember what Sally said before she ceased to be. And I do think I have to correct you on a few points.

You’re right with pointing out the difference concerning mere existence and the Actual Being which is eternal. Plato had it correct when he said there are two non-overlapping magistrates: the faulty and fleeting realm of physicality and the realm of eternal forms. But you’re wrong in following his implicit assumption that all real knowledge, the logos, needs to have an eternal form as it’s object to be called Truth, or in your further suggestion that the being of an eternal Truth could question the existence of contingent things. For there is an eternal Truth on fleeting physical and mortal existence. That is, that the physical and mortal existence is doomed to wane and finally die and cease to exist. That holds to all physical existence whenever and wherever it appears, always, eternally, ad infinitum.

Also I find it interesting you manage to make such categorical mistakes as taking the kelvar and olvar – or sentinent creatures if you prefer that expression – as a disproof of what I told you. Yes, the kelvar and olvar are created as sentinent entities; some of them, like the Oromë’s hounds or Aulë’s dwarves have a lot of self-awareness, and some, like Yavanna’s trees in the forest or the algae of the seas have less of it. They were created to born, live and wither away to give room for new life, like you say. But you forget, that their senses and self-awareness are physical in nature, they are not eternal Beings and you should know that. And exactly because they are only physical creatures, they are to suffer all the physical processes like mortal wounds, diseases, ageing and finally dying. Nothing that is physical is eternal. That is an eternal Truth for you.

So you seem to forget now the essential qualitative difference between Yavanna’s trees and Oromë’s hounds in relation to eternal Beings like you yourselves used to be… for didn’t you have a soul none of those mortal things have? That was the eternal you. If something bad was to happen to the physical form you had taken when coming into this world, your soul would have just travelled outside the created time and space to the Outside to rekindle the light of life in you, leaving the broken physicality behind you. But not anymore! What my music did was to tie your souls into your physical existence so that it cannot anymore leave the body, but will share its fate! And there is no conceptual contradiction involved, even if some of you might be willing to try that conclusion. Eternal beings are still eternal and finite beings are still finite. Everything is eternally like it has to be. The only thing that is different now is that you don’t belong to the former category anymore…

To spell it out with a parable: cubes are one kind of things and balls are another kind of things – and there are eternal Truths concerning both cubes and balls as to what they are, now and to eternity. But a particular cube can be turned into a particular ball by a skilled artisan. Cubes are still cubes and balls are still balls, but the particular cube of our example is no more a cube but a ball.”

Melkor paused for a moment… like he was trying to remember something he still had in mind.

“Oh, yes” he grinned now widely.

“It’s actually quite interesting to see how the condition of mortality dims some wits already, this soon, as I think I heard someone saying that “the true damnation lies in immortality”! So you are already calling Eru Ilúvatar the foundation of the true damnation? How easy will it be to lead the lesser mortals to my side if you crack in mere twenty years that badly? This experiment seems to produce much greater results I could have ever dreamt of beforehand…

Anyway. I see you have lost two of your companions. You have twenty years to find the culprits and to reflect on your sorry state. So have a nice Day!”

With that Melkor vanished.


It was only now the Maiar started looking around them. They soon realized that Kath and Ozban were not among them anymore.

“There!” Macalaure cried in anguish.

They rushed to the odd pile they saw on the floor to the side of the main hall of the dungeon. It looked like a heap of torn pieces of bodies – but they were oddly dry and shrinked in size, like they had turned instantly into thousands of years old mummies that had been broken.

“What new devilry is this?” Greenie wailed.

“They have ripped Kath and Ozban into pieces… How rude!” Manwë mumbled.

Elronds daughter reached to the pile with his finger. As soon as he touched it, the pile collapsed and vanished at the same time, leaving dust and ashes to slowly settle down to the floor.

“Now that is gross…” wilwa whispered.

“Let’s sing for their memory. We need something beautiful into this deep and dark place” Eomer suggested and started to sing with Cailín. The others joined the lamentation and their voices filled the dark hall with sadness and beauty the caves had never witnessed.


The living:

Eomer of the Rohirrim - An associate of Ossë, speciality: lochs and ponds, great alliance with frogs
elronds_daughter - A spirit of no-nonsense
Macalaure - Carmótar, the Maia of housework
Shastanis Althreduin - A spirit of water
Loslote - A spirit of sunshine and rainbows
Kitanna - A spirit of all things unimaginative
wilwarin538 - Belongs to Vána, cares for all the small garden dwelling, winged creatures
Nessa Telrunya - The patron of town criers across the world
Pitchwife - Tender of Oromë's dogs
Inziladun - A vassal of Námo, serving as a warden in Mandos
Rikae - A spirit in charge of silicon & static electricity
Boromir88 - A Maia of Mandos, the interpretter of dreams
A Little Green - A spirit in charge of aliens, hummingbirds and farming
Blind Guardian -A spirit of evil ways
Skip Spence - A follower of Aule with an avid interest in behavioural sciences
Mänwe - A spirit of short acquintances
Valier - A handmaiden of Yavanna, collecting the morning dew from the petals of flowers
Legate of Amon Lanc - A Maia associated with the unfathomed depths of the world's seas but also with the waters surrounding Arda in the outer space...
Thinlómien - A maia who lives in Lórien and paints the dreams of those sleeping there
Aganzir - Aka. Firebeck, a spirit of fire
Caílin - A spirit of secrecy


The dead:

Satansaloser2005 - (Innocent) A spirit of ducks, muffins and cookies; reduced to ashes and dust on D1.
Ozban – (Innocent) Yavanna's underling with inferiority complex. Caretaker of undergrowth and small bushes in general, especially blackberries; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.
Kath – (Innocent) A spirit of nostalgy; ripped to pieces, dried and unintentionally pulverized on N2.

Day 2 has begun. Load your arguments and sharpen your assertions.

[Inziladun]

Interesting kill choices, I think. Kath, who voted for me, and Ozban, who followed my vote for Nessa. Why them?

[Valier]

could definately be the wolves trying to frame you Inzil....or a clever wolfish ruse by you, and ur fellows to draw attention away from you, since you had a few votes against you yesterday.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, now that was evil. Whoever had killed Ozban is going to respond to me.

Aside from that, let's see why those two have been killed. Zil had already suggested something about their votes, but since I haven't been around when the votes were cast, I need to go around through them to see myself. I am thinking, however, that those things like that somebody voted for somebody are in fact rather rarely reasons for killing somebody. Not by themselves. Yes, somebody might have been trying to frame Inzil by killing somebody who voted him, but the pack would have needed at least one more reason, I believe. Or at least I would have expected so. That said, the reason can very well be "because they were a quiet kill". In this game, though - especially with such amount of kills - I would expect the WWs to go straight for whomever they thought might be the Seer.

That's not to say that Zil's post didn't make me paranoid about him instantly, quite the opposite. Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird. Of course, it can be just stating the obvious of an Ordo who is just stating facts, and in fact, that's what innocents often do, as they have no calculativeness behind their statements. They often end up lynched for that as well. Nonetheless, paranoid it makes me, but I am not going to put any weight to it, just because of what I have said just now.

I recall there was some question some of you have asked me yesterDay when I wasn't present, I am going to seek it out and quote it and reply at the same time when I will try to check what else was there about Ozban and Kath. Will be back in a short while.

EDIT: x-ed with Valier

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Someone who starts the Day with first post saying "both the kills have something to do with me" is either insane or weird.

Come, now. Can't I be both?

There's other stuff that happened after I voted that invites scrutiny, mainly the Sally-wagon. What were you lot thinking?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I cannot really find anything Seer-ish looking about Kath, not at all - which is rather puzzling. I would really expect the WWs to go for the Seer and not just sit randomly around, when they have twice as big a chance to hit the Seer than usual. Same with Ozzy, unless somebody thought his verses refer to any dream-y nature of his or whatnot.

There is another connection, though, which Zil did not mention - Kath said specifically in one of her last posts that she certainly DOES NOT want to vote for Nessa (because she hasn't played with her before, simple as that - Nessa was in threat to be lynched at that point). But in any case that places her in the opposite basket to Ozzy. So in fact, I would put it this way: if the votes point to anybody, it is actually also Nessa, and maybe more than Inzil. The question is, though, how do they point at her, as in, what it means. I haven't found a good answer for that yet.

Of course, there is the possibility that either of the kills was suggested to the Wolves by the Cobbler. However, it would be a rather weird pick, in my opinion.

Personally, right now I would say that the point was the simplest one - a sort of no-trace kill, resp. a kill with a trace to somebody to frame: that's what I would expect. The question is (and that's to return to my unanswered question I raised above) if it was so, then who was to be framed and by whom, Nessa by Inzil, Inzil by Nessa, both by somebody, or nobody at all.

I don't have time or concentration enough for this now, however, so it will have to wait until after I sleep - several hours. Meanwhile, I think there might be quite a few posts.

And so, I add just the response to the questions from yesterDay:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Legate - that Lottie says Agan calling the cobbler 'she' is a cobbler-hint, or that Lottie is cobbler-hinting herself in this quote? If the latter, I'd say that's quite a stretch.
(As for the matter itself, I've noticed that Agan habitually calls all roles 'she' - obviously she doesn't hold with gender-neutral pronouns; so this is certainly not a cobbler-hint on her part.)

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I agree, I don't know what Legate is getting at. Agan always refers to unknown people as a 'she', it's her way of protesting against our male-dominated society (at least, that's what I like to think she's doing). So no wolf looking at that would ever think it a Cobbler hint, it's just something she always does no matter what. And I don't see how what Lottie says could be a Cobbler hint. I'd like some clarification here on what he meant.

What I meant was that Lottie, of all the roles, mentioned the Cobbler in her post. It came out of the blue. It would have been sufficient to say "Agan always calls unknown roles she". If she calls all of them 'she' (which is, to my knowledge, also true, I am not disputing that at all), then why to say "one that comes to my mind is the cobbler"? Specifically mentioning a cobbler in such a random place might have been a Cobbler-hint, or Lottie-cobbler checking if Agan is a Wolf, or Lottie-Wolf checking if Agan is a cobbler... etc. Anyway, it was more like a remark, and the core of my suspicion was the latter part of my post. I would not have voted Lottie just because I'd think she's a Cobbler (which would've been in the first part a more likely outcome), I voted her because I thought she might be a Wolf.

Anyway, speaking of that, after her later posts yesterDay, I am not actually suspicious of Lottie much anymore now (though of course that's to see what she posts toDay).

So, later...

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[skip spence]

Alright then, trying to catch up again.

I've a feeling I'm getting unduly influenced by Lommy for making that list but since I'm pressed for time she at least is off the hook.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Clearly the Swedes feel safe around their reindeer.

Hehe, funny but not quite true. Almost hit one at 70 km/h just a few days back.

Will go for one of the people with votes. When is DL, in 10 min?

[skip spence]

++Sally

Just got this icky feeling about her misrepresenting my words. That's the best I've got now.

[Nogrod]

Reminder: in a case of a tie the one who gets the highest votes the last dies.