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Old 01-18-2011, 05:46 PM   #1
tumhalad2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
Form, that's sort of what I've been trying to say, though you put it more clearly and elegantly than I could.

What I've been specifically arguing against is the claim that this particular tale is so radically different from the rest of Tolkien's work that it can only be properly understood out of context... even that it is somehow "wrong" to keep the rest in mind while reading it.

They all have their own unique tone and atmosphere. I'd guess this story seems so aberrant to you only because you're reading it out of context, and then thinking about how the rest of Legendarium looks without it. Er... does that make sense?
I do not conted CoH can only be read out of context, or that it is 'wrong' to do so. Of course all the works have their own unique tones, and no, I don't believe the story seems aberrant merely because I'm not reading it in context; I am, but even within the context of the larger 'legendarium', I find that it contrasts quite markedly, for the reasons I have outlined.

Please demonstrate to me, in some textual way, how exactly you think the metaphysics of CoH and LOTR are similar? Or are they similar only in terms of the "larger context"? I don't understand your point. How does the "larger context" make CoH consistent with LOTR, and why should it even be expected to do so? Is it because there really is suffering in both, but in the end good comes of it? Perhaps that is true of LOTR, but it is manifestly not of the story of Turin. No 'good' comes of it at all.

So, I want to be clear.

-CoH is part of a larger story arc.
-It can be read as part of this larger story arc. Of course
-How does this diminish the metaphysical, aesthetic, tonal, and qualitative difference between it and LOTR, whether it is read as part of the Silmarillion or not? Specifically?
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:31 PM   #2
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*sigh* Unfortunately, after the lapse of several months, I no longer have all the arguments posed on this thread at my fingertips, but I'll do my best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2 View Post
I do not conted CoH can only be read out of context, or that it is 'wrong' to do so. Of course all the works have their own unique tones, and no, I don't believe the story seems aberrant merely because I'm not reading it in context; I am, but even within the context of the larger 'legendarium', I find that it contrasts quite markedly, for the reasons I have outlined.

Please demonstrate to me, in some textual way, how exactly you think the metaphysics of CoH and LOTR are similar? Or are they similar only in terms of the "larger context"? I don't understand your point. How does the "larger context" make CoH consistent with LOTR, and why should it even be expected to do so? Is it because there really is suffering in both, but in the end good comes of it? Perhaps that is true of LOTR, but it is manifestly not of the story of Turin. No 'good' comes of it at all.

So, I want to be clear.

-CoH is part of a larger story arc.
-It can be read as part of this larger story arc. Of course
tumhalad, wasn't your position that it wasn't and it couldn't? I'm not clear why you feel it necessary to roll your eyes at this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2 View Post
-How does this diminish the metaphysical, aesthetic, tonal, and qualitative difference between it and LOTR, whether it is read as part of the Silmarillion or not? Specifically?
tumhalad. I cannot be bothered re-reading this entire thread, but to the best of my recollection you, and davem, were arguing that CoH belonged outside the rest of Tolkien's creation, and ought to be read separately, not as part of the larger story– that it fact reading it in context would "cheapen" it. Therefore it would seem you thought it made a difference. Nice about-face.

Anyway, my purpose here was to argue that it is at least equally valid to read it as part of the whole. Furthermore, I was talking about the legendarium as a whole at that point, as I think we all were. If you can't understand my point about context... well, I'm at a loss, because it seems a very simple one to me.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:41 PM   #3
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I will roll my eyes if I wish. Thanks.

Apparently I have not been clear enough. I argue that it can be read "out of context" or "in context". Clear?

I have never argued it belongs out of the rest of the creation. I argue it contrasts on many points with other aspects of it.

Perhaps we agree more than you think. Yes, it can be read in context. Whatever. I don't care, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the story, and whether you read it in context or not, how it contrasts with LOTR in particular.

I have not about faced, nor have I contradicted my argument. If you think I really have, show me a quote.

Last edited by tumhalad2; 01-18-2011 at 08:30 PM. Reason: more thoughts
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:12 PM   #4
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Quotes? Okay, here you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad
I think CoH is cheapened if it is merely perceived as a part of a greater story
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen
Which neatly settles the question of whether the author ever meant it to be a stand-alone work, doesn't it? Obviously, he didn't.
Obviously? I'm not entirely convinced about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad
We think we know better because we have the Silmarillion, which says that Eru created the world, etc, but once again I'm not certain CoH should be read through that prism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad
Now, I think there are better readings and worse readings, by no means are all "equal". In this case, to completely diss the novel's major thematic, emotive energy in favour of a kind of reading that at best seeks to mitigate or at worst ignore the utter defeat and nihilism of it is, I think, fatuous.
Good enough for you?

Incidentally, before you get angry– please recall that I stated repeatedly on your "CoH film" thread that I was not interested in starting up this debate again. I'm not– I got bored with it long ago. I replied to you only because you specifically, not to mention rather aggressively, demanded a reply. Now you've had it. Enough.

EDIT:X'd with tum's self-edit.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:23 PM   #5
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Quotes? Okay, here you go.


Good enough for you?

Incidentally, before you get angry– please recall that I stated repeatedly on your "CoH film" thread that I was not interested in starting up this debate again. I'm not– I got bored with it long ago. I replied to you only because you specifically, not to mention rather aggressively, demanded a reply. Now you've had it. Enough.

EDIT:X'd with tum's self-edit.
Those quotes do not demonstrate that I argued in favour of exclusively reading CoH out of context of the legendarium. They merely show that I was interested the way different readings might yield certain outcomes.

Last edited by tumhalad2; 01-18-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:25 PM   #6
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1420!

tumhalad, please calm down. I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings– and yes, I'll admit I do quite enjoy baiting you. I don't really mean any harm by it, though. (However I am probably often the first to respond to your posts simply for time-zone reasons.)

Anyway, since other people may want to continue the topic, I suggest you delete those last two paragraphs before one of the mods closes the thread. They usually do when things get this heated.

~Nerwen, Internet Bully.

EDIT:X'd with tumhalad again.
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:28 PM   #7
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Okay, lets agree to get along then

It is evident we have different ideas about things, but that's okay. In future, and I am trying to be as friendly as possible here, please desist "baiting" me. I don't appreciate it, and I'm not sure why you do it. That way, I'm less liable to reply in turn, and our disagreements are less likely to end in me getting frustrated and annoyed at you.

Other than that, your ideas are always interesting and thought provoking

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Old 01-18-2011, 08:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tumhalad2 View Post
Okay, lets agree to get along then

It is evident we have different ideas about things, but that's okay. In future, and I am trying to be as friendly as possible here, please desist "baiting" me.
We-ell, I'll try...
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