Short end of the stick, so to speak... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 10-06-2003, 05:28 AM

As said before, JRR Toklien change the idea of second-live of the Elves. He came in the end to the conclusion that the Elves were not reborn as children, because they were supposed to continue their former live.
The Elves were re-incarnated, that means the fea (soul) was put into a new-build hoar (body). The new hoar was an exact copy of the one that perished and it was fabricated by the Valar. So the re-incarneted Elves were in Valinor and almost all stayed their. Some Elves did not desire re-incarnation and to some it was denied by Mandos.

It is right that JRR Tolkien hesitated also about the rebirth of the Fathers of the Dwarves. But there is no evidence that he rejected it entirely for them.
In view of the topic I put out the theory that the gift for the Dwarves was real rebirth as children. This is of course only a theory, back-uped only by the Fathers of the Dwarves who gained full memory of thier former lives. But Gimli showed also some hints of "racial-memory". He tells the fellowship that they, the Dwarves of Erebor, dream about the three pikes of Moria, and he recognised the Balrog for what it was called by the Dwarves, "Durin's Bane".

To put it straight my theory is:
All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Fathers of the Dwarves came, when they had grown up, to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions.

Respectfully
Findegil

Groin Redbeard · 04-16-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

To put it straight my theory is:
All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Father of the Dwarves came when they had grown to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions.

I'm a bit confused, is this reborn theory a type of reancarnation?

I don't see that as a special type of gift, after all the elves had eternal life and then go to dwell in the halls of Mandos.

I'm not sure where I've heard it (I think it was from Legate), but I think that the dwarves dwell with Aule until the worlds end; after that they will help him rebuild a new Middle Earth.

The Sixth Wizard · 04-17-2008, 04:04 AM

Very interesting topic, thank you for reviving it, if only so I could read it! I don't think the only unique gift of the Dwarves was their jewellery skills ...

I always imagined dwarven psyche as the kind you are using when you pick at a scab, or dig a massive pit in sand, or gut out a hole in a school table with a pair of scissors; it seems pointless and slow in hindsight, but you think to yourself later "I just sat there and did that for HOW long??". And you get this massive great hole as a result.

I could see that patient, never-give-up psyche working in a Dwarf 24-7 (and I bet it would be cool).

Findegil · 04-17-2008, 01:37 PM

The difference between re-birth and re-incarnation is, that in the case of re-birth the person becomes a child and to gain a happy childhood the memory of the former life has to be swept out. Therefore we are told, that the Fathers of the Dwarves got the memory of their former lives only back later when they were grown up again.

A person that is re-incarnated, on the other hand, gets back his own body in the state before its destruction which had led to the end of its former life, with memory of its former life and all else. In my point of view there was one great difference, but Tolkien did never address this point: The Elves in Middle-Earth faded, but in Valinor they did not. Therefore, I believe, that the body created for the re-incarnation was an unfaded body, even if the Elve had before lived in Middle-Earth and its former body had already shown significant signs of fading. That might have been a further reason, why only very few re-incarnated Elves left Valinor.

The Elves had not eternal life. They had life as long as Middle-Earth was inhabitable. If they lost their body during that time they went to Mandos not afterwards. What happened to them after Middle-Earth was ended they did not know. For Men on the other hand (and for Dwarves also) there was a promise of an after life even beyond the point of the last battle and the destruction of Middle-Earth.

Is re-birth a gift? Is death to an unknown doom a gift? Is a live as long as the existence of Middle-Earth, with an unknown doom afterwards a gift?
Who shall envy whom? We hear that Elves and Men did envy each other at times. Why should it be other wise with Men and Dwarves or Dwarves and Elves? Who would not wish (at times at least) back to the happy day of childhood with no responsibility and the freshness of so many experiences?

Respectfully
Findegil

10-06-2003, 05:28 AM	#1
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	As said before, JRR Toklien change the idea of second-live of the Elves. He came in the end to the conclusion that the Elves were not reborn as children, because they were supposed to continue their former live. The Elves were re-incarnated, that means the fea (soul) was put into a new-build hoar (body). The new hoar was an exact copy of the one that perished and it was fabricated by the Valar. So the re-incarneted Elves were in Valinor and almost all stayed their. Some Elves did not desire re-incarnation and to some it was denied by Mandos. It is right that JRR Tolkien hesitated also about the rebirth of the Fathers of the Dwarves. But there is no evidence that he rejected it entirely for them. In view of the topic I put out the theory that the gift for the Dwarves was real rebirth as children. This is of course only a theory, back-uped only by the Fathers of the Dwarves who gained full memory of thier former lives. But Gimli showed also some hints of "racial-memory". He tells the fellowship that they, the Dwarves of Erebor, dream about the three pikes of Moria, and he recognised the Balrog for what it was called by the Dwarves, "Durin's Bane". To put it straight my theory is: All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Fathers of the Dwarves came, when they had grown up, to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 04-17-2008 at 01:05 PM.

04-17-2008, 04:04 AM	#3
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Very interesting topic, thank you for reviving it, if only so I could read it! I don't think the only unique gift of the Dwarves was their jewellery skills ... I always imagined dwarven psyche as the kind you are using when you pick at a scab, or dig a massive pit in sand, or gut out a hole in a school table with a pair of scissors; it seems pointless and slow in hindsight, but you think to yourself later "I just sat there and did that for HOW long??". And you get this massive great hole as a result. I could see that patient, never-give-up psyche working in a Dwarf 24-7 (and I bet it would be cool).

04-17-2008, 01:37 PM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The difference between re-birth and re-incarnation is, that in the case of re-birth the person becomes a child and to gain a happy childhood the memory of the former life has to be swept out. Therefore we are told, that the Fathers of the Dwarves got the memory of their former lives only back later when they were grown up again. A person that is re-incarnated, on the other hand, gets back his own body in the state before its destruction which had led to the end of its former life, with memory of its former life and all else. In my point of view there was one great difference, but Tolkien did never address this point: The Elves in Middle-Earth faded, but in Valinor they did not. Therefore, I believe, that the body created for the re-incarnation was an unfaded body, even if the Elve had before lived in Middle-Earth and its former body had already shown significant signs of fading. That might have been a further reason, why only very few re-incarnated Elves left Valinor. The Elves had not eternal life. They had life as long as Middle-Earth was inhabitable. If they lost their body during that time they went to Mandos not afterwards. What happened to them after Middle-Earth was ended they did not know. For Men on the other hand (and for Dwarves also) there was a promise of an after life even beyond the point of the last battle and the destruction of Middle-Earth. Is re-birth a gift? Is death to an unknown doom a gift? Is a live as long as the existence of Middle-Earth, with an unknown doom afterwards a gift? Who shall envy whom? We hear that Elves and Men did envy each other at times. Why should it be other wise with Men and Dwarves or Dwarves and Elves? Who would not wish (at times at least) back to the happy day of childhood with no responsibility and the freshness of so many experiences? Respectfully Findegil