Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nog basically said everything I had in mind.


And if he had continued the banter, you'd say "it's entirely unlike Nog to not post anything serious!"?

Probably would. However, the truth of the matter is he didn't, so it doesn't matter what I would have said in response to a hypothetical situation that did not occur. What did happen is he entered with a generic bleak "oh we look doomed we won't know roles at death." When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

In some ways this situation is a curse for the wolves. Whenever you have roles revealed at death, the wolves have the night to concoct whatever story they want, because everyone now knows the person's role. And the wolves can spin the lynch however they want. "How did that bandwagon happen against Glirdan yesterday! There must be a wolf in that evil wagon!" (when really it's just a false lead because as everyone would now know Glirdan's role) However, not getting the role at the person's death, means the wolves can't manipulate any information from the lynch, because to the non-wolves there is no info for the wolves to manipulate.

More information isn't necessarily better information. Sometimes it is, other times it just means there's more information for the wolves to manipulate in whatever way suits their purposes.

I didn't buy the bleak "we won't know the roles! We're in trouble!" business last game when the roles weren't revealed at death. And seeing how well the village did in that prior game, I'm certainly not buying it now.

As for the rest of Nog's post it's just basic on what we do learn from the deaths and then instructions to the gifteds (which of course Nog has to add they aren't obliged to follow). This caused, because of current events, what I will now call my twitter reaction. If there was a twitter-account in these parts of the world world, and if I cared to have one, I would tweet "Nog's on my radar that first post looks evil."

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I am not sure, like, was that a serious accusation?

Nah, sports joke. "Experts" make pre-season choices, but as the season goes on they change all their selections and winners, to try and boast their expertise. However, if they're wrong, they can always go back to their pre-season picks, because at one point in time they probably had the right choice, to where they can claim SEE I WAS RIGHT THIS WHOLE TIME! It's a nifty trick by sports analysts to try and prove they are experts, when really they don't know anything more than any other John Doe.

A underhanded jab at tp's ego, but not a serious accusation. My opinion of tp is still a work in process, to be determined at a later time.

Edit: crossed with Ms sally.

[Anguirel]

Yup, so I had a longish walk today as part of my general errantry, and it was vaguely thought provoking.

Trivial stuff first: Am I right in remembering Aganzir is of the stiff-lipped house of Finnwe too, which I had forgotten? That renders my elder brother metaphor rather literally silly and wrong, sorry about that. All in all I actually have little to go on here

Also, I can explain Mith's subversive question about the whereabouts of Macalaure and Rikae after their bodily deaths; surely they have clung to Middle-earth as Houseless Coavalta, covertly twisting events to their will...

Ahem, strategy, strategy.

Just two things about this Second Life situation we ought to consider.

1) The ability of the dead to detect wolves is triggered after three deaths (surely not counting the coavalta co-mods). In the normal way of things, there will only be two by tomorrow. Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

[Anguirel]

Oh, and

"Like I said, no problem with having fun for a while, but if everybody keeps doing it for the whole game, we don't get anywhere." - Legate

Sheer gold

[Mithalwen]

People having fun? Outrageous! What do they think this is? A game? Pfft

Just becasue some of us intend to enjoy the ride, it doesn't mean we aren't going somewhere

[Thinlómien]

Well I said this game is going to confuse me and that's what it's doing no doubt. That said, I'm at least happy Nog took up the "stiff upper lip house of Finnwë" stuff so I don't need to do that.

You're probably going to kill me for this, but I really do want to lynch the phantom. Both for making fun of me (as if I'd ever protect anyone with such a small head and long sleeves!) and because he's never been lynched on Day1 before. I say it'd be a nice idea to have a shot at him joining our little pack of fenrises. I could also lynch Lottie just for being a tp fangirl, but I guess that's just how she is...

Originally Posted by Nog

And that means also, that getting the lovers and the ranger dead will be the first priority of the wolves: if they die early their return will not help us that much (and a double-protection is not such a mighty weapon in a big village than later) as the living then lose their only shot at any tangible information.

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

3) a player who in dying takes down another is, or rather was the Hunter– for what that's worth. Should be helpful to the Dead, anyway.

Depends how nice our mods are. If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.

Originally Posted by Boro whom I still haven't forgiven for last game

Nog's pinging on my suspicious radar. This is a real early, instant "twitter" impression, but definitely not a good impression. I'm not sure what to make of the "oops, have I missed that in the rules?" but his first post, while cutting straight to the point, looks too much like an attempt to start steering and spinning what Nog wants to spin.

And guess what my "twitter impression" is? I says you're a cobbler trying to send messages to wolves - "steering" sounds duspiciously close to "seering".

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all. So, we should really watch out for them too. This is not deny the obvious - wolves should be our preference.

Originally Posted by Mith

no one could be fonder of living horses but I have a practical streak.

I first read this as "but I have a practical steak" and I was like, nice confession mate.

Legate gives me headache. Might just be his style. But really! See how long a novel he writes just to state a few obvious thoughts. I think my head is sort of over-sensitive to headache in big games with new rules, though.

Originally Posted by Sally

Also, clearly Maedhros did it. First little girls, now horses. What will he do next?!

Now, now! You were still backing him up in the latest round of hurt and heal - what happened? Grew some fur, eh?

Originally Posted by Boro

So, first it's like, ok...what's the reason for the pessimism here? It's not all that different. When we make our lynch vote today, unless you've entered with known info, you're not going to know the person's role at the time you're voting. We just won't find out at the day's end, gotta wait a little longer is all.

Quite optimistic, given that the regular scenario is that the wolves spot the seer early on and the ranger lives until the end game, which is kind of unlike what we want this time. In this game, we really got to use our wits (even) more than usual. A random vote from anyone toDay and you have a host of hostile penguins at your door. Just warning.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

2) The wolves are in a bit of a bind here. They need to survive to win, but if they altogether lack representation in the second chamber (qualified for by death) they will be missing out on valuable intelligence and will be vulnerable to a more united front from the Dead. I suspect, therefore, that they will actively want one of their number - probably no more than that, at least for a while - to die as early as possible. They will at least hope that the cobblers do. Maybe they'll try and identify and lynch the cobblers, even.

I pity your packmates! Anyway, interesting thoughts. Shows I haven't given the dead enough thought, for one.


edit: xed with Agan and Mith

[Thinlómien]

Shasta - no alarm bells... yet.
Nogrod - seems ok.
Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?
Glirdan - one banter line this far if I'm correct, nothing else. Kind of fishy, I think, but maybe I'll give him the benefit of time zones for now.
A Little Green - is making me and our friends deep fried bananas right now so I can forgive her for not posting.
elronds_daughter - didn't post yet, did she?
Mänwe - only banter this far. Cobbler?
Nerwen - kind of disturbing combination of banter and sharp understanding of facts. Feel like saying cobbler again, but I guess I should come up with something more original to make my suspicion feeling concrete. Wolf?
Loslote - I said already I don't like the fangirlism.
Wilwa - is absent.
Legate - confusing. Cannot judge him yet (if ever). *shudders*
Nessa - absent as well.
Blind Guardian - the only thing I recall from her regarding this game is that she was happy the dead can talk. Should we do her a favour and make her the first one?
satansaloser2005 - fishy as a fish.
the phantom - like I said, annoys me.
Boromir88 - I refrain from judging him in order not to do it wrong this time. Watching.
Mithalwen - seems innocent this far, I think.
Anguirel - still trying to figure out what he's up to.
Fea - not here.

Hmmm. Normally I don't suspect anyone, this time I suspect almost everyone. Not sure if it's any improvement. Shall be away for now, coming back later.


edit: xed with Ang

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

*raises an eyebrow* I think their priority would still be the seer, thank you very much Mr Cobbler.

Actually I disagree. If they manage to kill both Glorfindel and a lover before the seer, there's no one to bring back a word from Mandos.

If the hunter and her victim die in the Night, there's no guarantee we learn which one was the hunter and which one the victim.

Or if the hunter isn't around at the deadline and can't reveal...

Originally Posted by Anguirel

don't really know how I'd handle the role (I feel it would irritate my pride)...I'd much rather be suspected of being a proper carnivore, much more exciting

It's not the best role for people with an ego... but it's possible.

A union of dead Elves who trusted each other with good reason could do the wolves real damage

They have no way of knowing who's good or bad, except via a seer dream, but the longer it takes for the seer to die, the better. Until then, the dead don't know if they're talking with an ordo or a cobbler and can't trust each other with good reason. Therefore I see little risk of a dangerous dead union.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Aganzir - hasn't been killing anyone with a berserk attack of nit-pickiness. Wondering what that means - maybe she's up to no good?

Guess what I almost just did? Quoted your post (about trying to find the cobblers) and said the phrasing looked fishy. Then I was like "oh my god I can't start this."

I don't like how many people still haven't posted. I might vote for one of them just out of principle, or one of my Guilties (preferably Lottie or phantom).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by the phantom

it will be incredibly obvious once one of them comes back to life that he can be trusted

As I see it there's nothing that stops the living lover from revealing once her significant other dies. We'll know it soon enough anyway if she isn't telling the truth, and that way the village has a known innocent at least for a day.

By the way Rikae what happens if a lover is lynched and the wolves kill the other? Does the first to die still come back?

2) The Seer should commit suicide right away.

Definitely not. The seer is more useful as long as she's alive because the dead have a rough way of telling whether someone is innocent but the living don't.

3) Glorfindel should... um... I don't know. Commit suicide soon to gain double protections and give us a trusted source until the baddies are forced to flush a kill on him in order to re-dead him? Or stay alive as long as possible to be a late-game news bearer between the threads?

The wolves are more likely to kill him for good once he comes back from Mandos and then we don't have a ranger. If we want to send a messenger to Mandos, it'd make more sense to kill a lover... except then we're two players down. Hmm.

Will be back later.

[the phantom]

(Thinking out loud here....)

Are all the votes and results completely public on the Dead-Thread? In other words, we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

Because private voting is HUGELY different. If everything is public, then it is my opinion that the good side will take swift and total control of the Dead activities. They can coordinate their vote with the Seer dreams, making certain never to repeat anyone, meaning that essentially this village starting tomorrow will have TWO Seer dreams in every single cycle, and that there is no possible way for the Wolves to stop those dreams, and so long as Glorfindel or the Lovers survive for a bit the Living will have an absolute ton of information to work with.

Not to mention that the Dead can indirectly pass information to the Living. The rules say that the narration will reveal each person who receives the extra Dead vote that day. What if the Dead agreed to always give their extra vote to whichever person the Seer dreamed to be innocent!! If we agree to this, then we could pass every innocent dream from the dead Seer to the Living, and if the voting weight is repeated on the same person, that will be a sign that the dream from the previous night was a Wolf (or died), which also could help.

Also, plans could be made on the Dead Thread and passed up to the Living, such as, "Tell them that so-and-so is getting dreamed tonight when I dream, and if that person doesn't receive the extra vote the following day then they must be a Wolf." Are you following me with this, or am I completely off base and forgetting something obvious?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When in the other game where roles weren't revealed at death the non-wolves faired very well and got it down to one wolf (who I felt should have been mod-fired for not posting or voting for 3 straight days) But point being, the wolves had a very tough time in the only other game (that I'm aware of) where the roles weren't revealed until it was game over.

My 'Blind Luck' game (from long, long ago) didn't reveal roles, which turned out to be a good thing because I was able to keep the fun going long after the village massacred my wolf team in the first two Days. The point of the game was to see who would be the last person standing, not so much the last team standing, and revealing roles would have messed that up entirely. But anyway, the point is that I didn't reveal roles and the village still successfully took out my wolves one after the other.

So though it might be a little frustrating to us as a village to be playing blind, it doesn't mean we're doing badly, it just means we can't rely on fallacies like, "He voted for her, and she was a [role], so they must be-" and will have to rely more on intuition.

Originally Posted by Ang

Might we want to engineer a double-lynching so that the Dead can start helping us with their deliberations earlier?

I can't decide if that's brilliant or ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Agan

WHERE?
Fea

Leijonien kanssa. Also, stuck in a city waiting for my windshield to be replaced. But I'm home now.

Originally Posted by el fantom

The idea that I won't be out of the game at all even after death and such- Tell me, is anyone else struggling greatly with how to react? I feel extremely.... not pressured. Almost detached even.

Honestly, I signed up because I knew that no matter what my role was, dying wouldn't put a damper on my participation. If I was bad and a seer nabbed me (as always happens when I'm bad), it's not the end of the world because I can still muck up the works on the Dead Thread. Since I'm good, even if I die casually, I'll probably have more fun and be more useful dead anyway.

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Originally Posted by phanty

we all cast votes in the open to give an extra vote as well as voting to discover a roll, and the roll is made public on the thread?

And then, we butter it, and break it into little pieces to show that we don't intend to hurt each other, and we eat it with great ceremony, once we know what it is...

Originally Posted by Nog

Innocents: do not make false revelations!

I can't believe that my first post agrees with Noggin... As a good guy I tend to consider the merits of a false reveal. I once successfully drew the attention off of the actual seer for an entire game (I was the hunter). But in this scenario, where roles aren't actually revealed, a false revelation isn't irrelevant so much as harmful. If the good guys send good guys into the Dead Thread thinking they're the wrong role, it serves no good purpose.

Originally Posted by phantom

So.... long live the Cobblers?

Problem. The wolves could just act cobbler-ish.

Okay. I'm now caught up, and have addressed the main points I found to be of interest.

I should be around until deadline now, I think.