Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

So yeah, I don't know if I should go all Nilp on y'all and find out what all the Dead Thread's good for, or if I should actually try to stay alive.

Yeah, normally I try to make some pretense at fighting the inevitable lynch, but this time I was just going to try for "First Dead Head". And so, naturally, this turns out to be the one game that I don't come back to a lovely little clump of votes.

Originally Posted by Mänwe

I think this may have just been more fuel for the fire...

I don't like the way he seems to be sitting back and laughing at the 'spat' between Shasta and Nog, but what's worse is he then pokes and prods them in a seeming attempt to escalate the fight more. By pointing out the one line in Nog's post that could be taken the wrong way, Mänwe's making things worse, not A) ignoring it so we can move on and try to hunt wolves or B) trying to resolve the fight so we can move on and try to hunt wolves.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

++NERWEN

Active enough to be useful in the next life, not so active I'll miss her desperately in this one.

Voting now because I'm not going to be awake for DL (especially since B88 informed me that DL is an hour after I'd thought it was). Literally can't keep my eyes open. Nighty night, all.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes– except you're at the least the second person to vote on the grounds that the target would be a "useful ghost". I don't like that reasoning at all.

I agree with that. The idea of a "useful ghost" seems extremely weird to me. The only truly "useful ghosts" are the thread-hoppers. Everyone else will simply be exactly who they are just posting on a different thread, and if they were mistrusted to the point that they were lynched by the Living, what are the odds that they will have much chance at influencing the Dead for positive purposes? I mean, they could certainly, but I imagine that trust on the Dead-Thread will be strongly on the side of Night-kills.

I mean, it almost sounds as if the reasoning is, "This person is vocal and probably will serve us well in death!" in which case you ought to go ahead and say outright that you have to intention of lynching a Wolf this day, but rather someone that could also be helpful on the Living thread that you may come to trust and so on... I dunno... I feel as if my rebuke isn't making great sense because really I can't make much sense of the idea I'm speaking against.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry I did my old lady doze off on the sofa thing. Hope I have another hour..*yawn* but have to say random stab in the dark and Somnus look good now...

[the phantom]

As far as Nog versus Shasta, upon rereading Shasta's post I'm more than ever leaning towards both of them being innocent.

Glirdan has already expressed most of what I would say regarding Shasta's defense (it shouts "innocent" to me as much as anything I've seen from anyone today).

Similarly, when I look at the way in which Nog accused Shasta, while it may be wrong it does not strike me as invention. His claim that Shasta particularly went after him rather than me based upon who would be around at the deadline- it really sounds like honest paranoia and annoyance. If I recall I have actually been chided for doing the same thing- always assuming that all the baddies are out to get me in particular, and so if someone did to me what Shasta did to Nog I can well imagine having a "Ah ha! Trying to kill me, eh?!" reaction to it, and building the case from there.

[Boromir88]

I'm completely lost on this entire voting for people to be good to control the dead thread. Umm, am I mistaken in believing we win by lynching wolves in the living thread? I'm sorry I'm just not understanding this logic of filling the dead thread with people we actually think are innocent...? Why are we even planning this?

1) We win by killing wolves in this life, not by filling the dead place with innocents. Am I foolish in thinking those two things contradict?

2) Simple numbers work out that innocents will control the dead thread. It serves the wolves little good to get lynched, or they lose. Maybe one wolf would start going to work if lynched, but that's not something we should concern ourselves with. And even if Cobblers seek to get themselves killed to work beyond the grave, they don't know who the wolves are.

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

So, let's end this silly "we should think about keeping the control of the dead thread in the hands of the innocents" when the real problem should be, handling the business of this thread...lynch wolves.

[the phantom]

Voting-

Lommy ++ Manwe
Legate ++ Nessa
Green ++ Lommy
Shasta ++ Nog
Agan ++ Nog (2)
Shasta ++ Shasta
Manwe ++ Green
Daughter ++ Nog (3)
Nessa ++ Legate
Fea ++ Nerwen

[the phantom]

About the current candidates- I am willing to try Lommy, and possibly Green. Given my lack of experience with them I have no thoughts on Manwe or Nessa, but given the format (the fact that everyone gets to keep playing) I don't feel at all bad about lynching them in order to save someone I feel better about.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm actually not entirely understanding where all this supsicion of Lommy is coming from.

My case is here, and stems from this Lommy quote-

Originally Posted by Lommy

Okay I know this might seem paranoid with seeing cobblers everywhere, but there's three of them out there so I'm kind of freaked out with the idea of how many people are trying to mess up with our heads. I'm sure they will come up with some rather ingenious startegies (given their endless lifespan and ability to remain unidentified) and that does not make me happy at all.

[Anguirel]

I'm pleased with this particular alternative to lynching Nogrod, Manwe - pretty much the one I was after. I am struck by the actual paucity of evidence against him but that's pretty hard to avoid right now.

I suppse this is where the "useful ghost" argument does attract some currency - given I've seen Nogrod is more vocal and detailed, and I've no damning suspicion on either him or Manwe, why shouldn't I prefer him in Mandos? The answer is shoddy, negative, and pusillanimous but I will admit it. The Shasta - Nogrod affair looked way too familiar for comfort.

(It's just occurred to me, in that unsettling suddden way that these things do, that if they're both wolves, well, they're doing well)

In contrast Manwe adopted a silent assassin position throughout much of today, then ended up joining the fray in a tone of preemptive snapping that reminded me of lupine false confidence I've seen before. He's much more likely to be wrong than right, but he feels the best I have to go on and less inevitably innocent than Nogrod. Have we been faced immediately with the classic dichotomy: a useful ghost or a lurking wolf? If so I have to stick to my stated tack, by choosing the latter.

++ MANWE

(also the Feanorian in me smirks at the idea of lynching one who bears the name of that smug Vala!)

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

A good pick– he also doesn't appear to be C) actually trying to work out whether either of them is, in fact, a baddie (and in fact voted for Greenie) but then you, Lottie, seem to be assuming the innocence of both parties, which is rather worrying in its turn.

But it doesn't matter if they're innocent or not. If this turns into a giant Shasta vs. Nog fight (anyone remember Roa? ) then either way, there won't be much productive reasoning going on.

Now, I'll have to vote and run, so, for his rather worrisome post...

++Mänwe

EDIT: xed since Nerwen

[Glirdan]

Okay, I remember that and I see your reasoning and find that it has its merits. One problem I see with it is right here:

is she possibly a Wolf and wishing for us to think too much about Cobblers, particularly if she planned at any point to gain innocence by throwing a suspected Cobbler under the bus, knowing full and well that the Cobbler would serve her purposes just as well in the Dead-Thread,

My only problem with this is the fact that there are so many people that are Cobblerish at this point in the game and that she actually has no real suspects. Her vote was more or less a throwaway.

I do, however agree with everything else and wouldn't mind seeing Lommy lynched myself. Her vote is what's really getting me. She only had three votes, votes for Manwe, gives and explanation but the explanation pretty much said "Look at me, I'm a throw away vote in disguise"

[Anguirel]

You're right Boromir, and what you say needs to be said; but it kind of has been said. Perhaps more volume won't go amiss. As I suggested, I think the dead Thread's getting a lot of concentration as an idea because it's new, shiny, and mysterious, a bit more interesting than the turgid if important business, often unrewarding, of hunting a wolf on Day One. But we seem to have let it distract us overmuch. My fault among others.

Mith, as far as I know I'm not scrapping with Fea, I just disagree with the reasoning of her vote. Or rather, I think its real reasoning is exhaustion, which means it's sort of lost sight of Slaying Enemies...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You're right Boromir, and what you say needs to be said; but it kind of has been said. Perhaps more volume won't go amiss. As I suggested, I think the dead Thread's getting a lot of concentration as an idea because it's new, shiny, and mysterious, a bit more interesting than the turgid if important business, often unrewarding, of hunting a wolf on Day One. But we seem to have let it distract us overmuch. My fault among others.

Aye, I might have repeated what others said, simply because I basically stopped reading much of the thread in my cloud of confusion if I was actually understanding this whole thing properly.

[Glirdan]

Okay, I'm making my vote now

++Lommy

Out of all the candidates up there, I would rather see either her or Manwe go. Out of the two, I choose Lommy for my reasons stated in my analysis post #145 of her. To do a quick recap: don't like here wishy-washy feeling, don't like her vote. Most of her posts have been banterish, time for that was long gone when she voted.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You're right [Mith, as far as I know I'm not scrapping with Fea, I just disagree with the reasoning of her vote. Or rather, I think its real reasoning is exhaustion, which means it's sort of lost sight of Slaying Enemies...

Oh I only meant her correction of Earendilion genealogy. I am so not with it I have refreshed the previous page about 5 times thinking that it had gone all quiet.... living or dead I am voting early in future....but in a bit of a dilemma what to do is it a bandwagon if you vote for someone with better reason than the person who cast the original vote..?

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Boro

3) What's so special about the dead thread it MUST UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES be in the control of the innocents or we're doomed? Someone from the living thread gets 2 votes...that's all yes? It's not like the dead are choosing an unstoppable force each day in the living thread, one person gets one extra vote.

I definitely understand this and totally agree that worrying about the dead thread should not be our concern....at this time. It will, if it comes down to it closer to the end, take more precendence as the game progresses and have a bigger impact then. Here's the scenario I have playing in my head

Down to four villagers and three Wolves. All the Wolves band together to kill one of the four villagers, the extra two votes kick in (lets say for a Wolf), thus killing a Wolf (if xe has two votes at this point), revealing who the other two Wolves are. Village wins.

That's the LAST CASE SCENARIO. Why all the talk about worrying who's in the dead thread now and what kind of impact it will have now (excluding if one of the Gifteds were to die). Really, it should be those who are alive later in the game who worry about it then. At least that's my understanding of the thread, because at this stage of the game, whether we come to Day 2 with 18 or 19 players, those two votes won't go a very long way. They will help, most definitely, but they will not have final impact.

X'ed with phantom (x2), Nerwen and Ang