Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

Mith and phantom, you're locked in what looks to me like a "tone of voice" hang up. phantom, you didn't pick up she was actually annoyed and so you had to poke the lair of Draugluin a bit more. You used quite strong words yourself, said you were annoyed at having to stay up and look out for Mith's unpredictability, and you weren't that annoyed, really, were you?

Yes, I was annoyed. Not angry at all, nothing strong- just annoyed. It wasn't that I was being held from bed in RL, but in fact I was trying to start on another pressing project and I was getting tired of waiting, and I was also annoyed that there wasn't anyone else around (I was greatly fearing Wilwa running in last minute and casting an unpredictable vote), and annoyed that I didn't know what the one person that was around was going to do. Basically I felt like it was all on me to prevent an impending catastrophe when I really should've been working on something else. (But you're right in your assumption that I wasn't meaning to "poke the sleeping dragon", but just stating my opinion.)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Ang

I really wish I was dead. I mean, I have a hangover, but I'm talking in werewolf terms. It is so frustrating looking at that gleaming untouched thread and knowing it has some answers in it.

Gah, don't say that! It just makes me paranoid. Seriously, I have this gnawing fear that we'll be debating something one day and everyone is sharing opinions that seem oddly formed and I'll just know that I'm the only person who isn't reading the Dead Thread!

[the phantom]

As far as the "pessimism vs optimism" thing, I frankly didn't see a great deal of the former from Nog at all, but rather he lays things out as they exist with possibilities of success and failure. Boro on the other hand I dislike because his positivity seems like sand-bagging, you know? Making it look as if the deck is stacked against his side in order to make himself feel better no matter what the outcome. Or perhaps he legitimately believes it and is in a round about way complaining. I know from experience that as a baddie it's easy to spot all the ways in which things could go horrifically wrong and it does make one feel rather optimistic on behalf of the village.

[Anguirel]

You're very tempted, phantom, aren't you! I won't break omerta myself, any more than I would, I don't know, steal Rikae's password and read her PMs. This is a comeback game, a real treat for me, and I want it to work however it's meant to work. I really don't think it's worth worrying about people breaking the rules. There are two main schools of thought about this game - Werewolf as competitive sport and Werewolf as psychological art. Both of those kinds of enjoyment would be hampered by peeking, so neither kind of player will do it. And after all, I've never known anyone cheat in Werewolf.

Speculation on the Dead Thread's outward appearance though is of course legit, and have you all noticed that Rikae is - contrary to my guess that she was a coavalta - pretty active in Mandos? What do you reckon is going on there? Just rules queries? Nerwen is on the money when she says there's a surprising amount of conversation going on there considering the population. I feel they must have received some kind of new information, or twist.

Talking of which, Fea, re those hypothetical ten werewolves - I was really referring to Diamond, who added a secret Wereduck if I remember rightly. As we both know, you tend to exaggerate rather than depreciate your minions' enemies' numbers! Your game was great, but I will always regret not persuading your own village to lynch you, 'Dark Lady'.

Legate - not having played with Manwe before, I was unaware that he was a particularly frequent scapegoat; while I regret having played a major role in lynching an unoriginal target, I must say he clearly picked the right game...perhaps he'd booked his bed in Mandos early.

I agree that Glirdan's comparison involving seers was unwise, but it seems to me not necessarily malicious. I must say that I'm known Glirdan as a Cobbler so often that I have illogical and unmathematical resistance to imagining him in that role yet again. I lean towards incautious innocent.

Aw phantom, be nice, give Mith a break and some virtual roses. But Boromir, the logical (well, the extreme) conclusion of your uneasy feeling about these veteran duellists is that they're both wolves. And if they were I could see them planning an acrimonious squabble, certainly. This theory is so amusing and attractive that I am having some trouble resisting it...

I wonder if it would be useful to make a summary of who, roughly, suspects and suspected who(m)?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommie

1. Tp and Lottie might not seem extra suspicious but they kind of annoy(ed) me. 2. I know it was far-fetched, but worth pointing out. I wouldn't discredit the idea of cobblers trying to pass on information to the wolves via hints. 3. I feel so much like saying: in all seriousness, I'm not a cobbler, but I think that wouldn't help my case.

1. Not surprised. 2. I agree that the cobblers will want to hint at the wolves, but the "hint" you found in Boro's post didn't seem like a hint at all to me. 3. Love.

Originally Posted by Lom

Okay now that was too much! You always suspect me, at least on Day1. Are you intentionally trying to mislead people about this??

This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do!

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't get why tp is so obsessed about the dead thread. Pardon me for bringing the cobblers up again, but that strikes me as something a phabbler would do: smoothly and subtly try to concentrate the discussion on something rather irrelevant, but not too relevant to raise too many eyebrows.

I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.

[Anguirel]

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

[Aganzir]

Lommy is sitting on a chair in her pajamas and telling me how Anguirel reminds her of an old man who has ran away from his nursing home and walks around seemingly aimlessly talking about Homer.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm a bit puzzled of the way you try to make me look suspicious... Are you trying to make me suspect you? Well, no deal done.

Try to make you look suspicious? Dear Noggins I think you're perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

I do think it is a perfectly valid and normal way of playing werewolf that you speculate on the motives behind what someone says looking how a wolf-X would have thought and which would have been her/his motives - or how what X said could be said by a wolf-X.

Me too, and I do that all the time, but you sounded mean.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I talk about the Dead Thread because I'm interested in it. Aren't you?

Yes. As a matter of fact, I'm going there tomorrow. Just for your information.

I wanted to see reactions to Shasta's death before revealing (especially Nog's), and I rather didn't wait till tomorrow just on the offhand chance the wolves decided to target me. I'm not much wiser, except I am not feeling in any way better about Nog.

Where art thou gone? The day is bare,
the sunlight dark, and cold the air!
Shastanis, where went thy feet?
O wayward star! O maiden sweet!
O flower of Elfland all too fair
for mortal heart! The woods are bare!

Congrats, wolves. You killed Lúthien.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

Lommy is sitting on a chair in her pajamas and telling me how Anguirel reminds her of an old man who has ran away from his nursing home and walks around seemingly aimlessly talking about Homer.

Oh noes, now I know why the "insult" a few posts above came so readily into my home. Mes apologies to Anguirel, I didn't mean to compare him with the pantom. (Oops! I seriously didn't make that typo on purpose but I just can't correct it anymore!!! )

And ouches, Agan. Not sure whose point this proves, though...

[the phantom]

Agan- Please say you're kidding...

Bleh....

In other words the Night-kill was almost as bad as it possibly could've been.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Green

This is interesting because I seriously think I almost never do!

I think you always suspect me on Day1 and drop it on Day2.

Originally Posted by Green

I don't get it either, but I don't know about your theory. If a phabbler (love the name!) wanted to distract us I'd expect him to come up with something a bit more effective - like some radical plan of action that will prove faulty only after being debated on for hours or something along those lines. Instead it seems it's just him and Ang who talk about the Dead thread.

Well I think he was doing that yesterDay.


edit: xed with Ang. I, for one, can wait.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I think you always suspect me on Day1 and drop it on Day2.

Hmm. I'm not sure I do, but I'm aware this is a rather fruitless conversation. However I hope you don't think I would stoop as low as to purposefully lie about something like that.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Well I think he was doing that yesterDay.

Ah. I thought you were talking about toDay (which, in retrospect, was rather stupid of me, given that the quote was in your post commenting on Day 1 ).

[the phantom]

I'm unsure of what "distracting" you think I'm doing, penguin-breath. Is there only one thing we're allowed to talk about and anything else is a "distraction"? Frankly, when it comes to providing thoughts and feelings towards others I think I've done as much as anyone.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Hmm. I'm not sure I do, but I'm aware this is a rather fruitless conversation. However I hope you don't think I would stoop as low as to purposefully lie about something like that.

Well not unless you were a cobbler. (Censure to safeguard the sanity of the most sensitive people. )

[A Little Green]

Nogrod - Seems his more aggressive self. He's at pains to emphasize his own innocence which strikes me as fishy, but other than that I don't find him particularly wolfy.

Aganzir - Her general tone is leaning innocent, but there have been a few odd comments that make me quite uneasy - the one where she talked about innocents uniting in Mandos as "little risk of a dangerous dead union", and her odd certainty than none of the runners-up for yesterDay's lynch were wolves. Wary of her.

Glirdan - Like I said before, I think he's a very possible Cobbler. Doubt he's a wolf.

Elra - Hard to say at this point. Might take a closer look if I had the time, which I unhappily don't.

Nerwen - Has slipped under my radar so far.

Loslote - Leaning innocent. Unlike some others, I don't find her tone particularly false.

Wilwa - I've seen too little of her to judge. There was something in her post that rubbed me the wrong way, I have no idea what that was though.

Legate - No idea yet, he's just being himself.

Lommy - Seems less suspicious toDay than she did yesterDay. Could still be a wolf, maybe even Cobbler, but I'm willing to give her a pass for toDay.

Nessa - Leaning a little bad. Her vote yesterDay was really odd, I could see a Nessawolf making that vote and counting on it being passed with "Hey, it was Day 1." Cobbler is another possibility - or she might be quite simply an ordo in lack of better ideas.

Blind Guardian - Where is she?

Sally - Where is she?

the phantom - Leaning innocent, though I'm starting to have doubts. (The doubts, though, being mostly of the "I'd hate it if he fooled me" kind.. )

Boro - I'm sort of worried that I can't remember much of what he's said apart from the cute typos, and the odd pessimism-debate. Could go either way.

Mithalwen - She's baffling me big time.

Anguirel - Possibly leaning innocent (but as soon as I wrote that I began having second thoughts). I'll be keeping an eye on him.

Fea - I have no read on her which is strange.


EDIT: x-ed with phantom and two Lommies

[Nogrod]

Well of course we have a phabbler.

I mean I was thinking about it yesterDay and then a bit during the Night - as this time no looking back to the thread by Night will be futile as you don't die as such.

Basically he was talking sense, making good points, being reasonable... well what else do you expect from tp? And I actually thought him a good and helpful ordinary innocent there and then.

But looking back at him later I think there was an unusual amount of small errors in his plans, all either benefiting the wolves or making it easier for them to play against us with their knowledge or then making it easier for us to back the wrong horses...

Let's take an example that has not been discussed thus far (Agan and myself -I'm not sure who, but someone else as well, Nerwen?) actually corrected a few of his suggestions already yesterDay).

He said we could automatically assume that the one the Mandos-folk would give an extra vote for is a goodie if we just agreed on it. I do myself believe there is a chance that the goodies should fare better there than here, but - like some others already have pointed out - it's not self-evident they will.

But there are other major problems as well.

If the voting there goes with the same DL as here as the rules suggest, there will be the same last minute madness there - especially if people here leave the voting to the last moment. So it is actually possible that even with the Mandos which would have a seer present who had made the others believe in him and seemingly there was a charge of goodies; well even then enough numbers of cobblers and/or wolves could make last minute impact on the extra-vote here.

Also, the Mandos goodies (if they were in charge) might have a good reason to give an extra vote to other people than "known ordinary innocents". Let's say we have a situation where a wolf and an innocent are leading the tally and a cobbler is voting the wolf and an the ordo is voting the other ordo. Surely if they knew the other was a wolf they would give the extra vote to the cobbler...

If there was a strict system adopted by us it would make it easier for the wolves to use it than to us. But also, even without a strict system established, if people were generally tuned towards that kind of interpretation it would steer their interpretations - and the wolves could play on that.


EDIT: X'd with a host.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I do, however agree with everything else and wouldn't mind seeing Lommy lynched myself. Her vote is what's really getting me. She only had three votes, votes for Manwe, gives and explanation but the explanation pretty much said "Look at me, I'm a throw away vote in disguise"

Come on Glirdy! Who should I have voted, then?

Originally Posted by Boro

Lommy - She's always unsure of herself, but so far she's not looking "unsure" it's getting to the looking paranoid point. Bring back the other Lommy please, who was unsure, yet at the same time grounded and gave me stability. I've attributed the only thing that she had been sure of, the bororadar, has gone brokey recently. But until I see more, I'm not going to write that off as the cause.

I think being too sure of oneself only leads to arrogance which leads to blindness which leads to epic fail. That tends to happen to me whenever I think I have a hang of the big picture in any ww game. So, it's better to admit your own confusion.

Originally Posted by Fea

There are obviously the two camps: Day One is important and we need to pay really close attention to it; and Day One is important, but only in retrospect because while it's happening, all the good guys are totally clueless, so their votes are about as reliable as those of the wolves.

More like, camp one says Day1 is important both then and especially in retrospect, while camp two says Day1 sucks excpet maybe in retrospect.

Originally Posted by Fea

That being said, now that Day One is over and we have a bit to go on, I don't think anybody (including myself) should make votes with apathy (and curiosity... I mean, I'm curious about the nature of the Dead Thread).

Eh? I think in this game all the Days are more or less like regular Day1s so I can't see what's the big difference.

Originally Posted by Agan

Lommy has played with Mänwe before and should know bantering doesn't necessarily make him evil.

Not denying that. But it shouldn't make him innocent either.


edit: xed with my darling sister and Mr I-Ran-Away-From-Retirement-Home