Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Thinlómien]

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

[Glirdan]

Well, I thought I was going to have another two pages to read through and get caught up on.

Originally Posted by Ang

Interesting that no one tossed a hair when Mith brought up the likelihood of some trouble involving Blind Guardian yesterday (there was a practically audible collective response of "yeah, whatever") and now a lot of people are talking about nothing else. All because of Rikae's rather dramatic footnote? It seems to me preeetty exaggerated as a line of enquiry.

I'm glad I am not the only one who sees it this way, and I am quite inclined to take a close look at those who keep bringing it up. It's a much too easy way for a Wolf and/or Cobbler to distract us from the things that are a little higher on the priority list, like any news that Shasta brings to us from the Dead.

As I was getting caught up, this caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Lommy

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

Ummmm, what??? Are you forgetting the rules of the game?? Or are you purposely trying to make us question Manwe again for no reason whatsoever?

EDIT: Xed with Nerwen

[Mithalwen]

Blimey you have been positively chatty while I was washing up ..perhaps I should try that more often :S preferably without knocking half a bottle of disinfectant over myself.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

My dearest! You've returned! Come to my– oh wait, I'm going to have to duel Agan, now, aren't I?

Oh, I'm sure that isn't necessary. It's more fun with three.

You mean using the double-vote choice as a sort of code? It's hard to think of a way that would actually be workable– especially it seems there's now at least one cobbler in Mandos.

Yeah. What I had in mind was something along the lines of "if the first living person on the player list gets her vote doubled, the person we lynched the previous day was a wolf," plus whatever modifications we can come up with. There are problems though - at least one cobbler (although if Nog still wants to keep playing the seer, he had better comply to what we agree here ), and the chance that the lynch gets messed up.

Originally Posted by Legate

now we are not going to learn for sure whether he was a Wolf or Cobbler, resp. innocent (Seer) or Cobbler --- For that matter, I really think that also among those who urged for voting him, there might be Wolves/Cobblers

He wasn't the seer. He was either a cobbler or a wolf, and I'm inclined to say cobbler because Wolfgrod usually seems smoother.
If he had been the seer with self-preservation in mind, he wouldn't have failed to see my fake reveal - or even if he had, not after all the comments it got. He would have said "But I was told you're Beren!" He pretended to overlook it because there was no way he could've explained it. He was not the seer. (See also phantom's post where he explained Nog was only a well-prepared cobbler; the only coded hint he left was "I am the seer" which is far less useful than leaving a coded hint about my & phantom's roles.)
I agree the baddies might have been voting for him though, especially if one of their own was suspected. But I don't think it's bad we lynched Nog. If we want to achieve anything, we have to kill the baddies, all of them not just the wolves. I don't like how Legate keeps insisting the cobblers are of secondary importance.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler. Surely her shoemaking techniques would've been flashier

I agree. Of course I can't be sure, but when I played with Febbler before, she felt very wrong to me which wasn't the case this time around. As in, I disagreed with everything she said.
However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

I presume they voted to check his role.

Anyway, my internet has been playing up badly again, and I'm not yet ready to visit the Halls via modfire, so–

++Nessa

See my previous post for reasons. It is rather thin, but I really can't come up with any strong lead to a wolf. (This isn't surprising considering how much the Nogrod show dominated yesterDay.) It's late at night here, though– maybe someone more alert will do better.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Agan

Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?

Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.

[Aganzir]

DAY 1:
She agreed with Nog that the innocents shouldn't do false reveals because it's harmful in a game where the roles aren't revealed.
Brought up the possibility of the wolves killing one of them who'd then proceed to play the seer in Mandos, saying we shouldn't base a plan on somebody claiming to be the seer because we have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth.
Had formed a (positive-ish) opinion on Shasta, Nog, me, Legate, Lommy, phantom, Boro, Mith, and Angu (this is what I'm going to call him from now on because it doesn't sound so much like Agan, plus it reminds me of Pingu); and said she'd vote for someone she hadn't an opinion of yet but who would be active in Mandos. She ended up choosing Nerwen.

DAY 2:
She suggests the wolves thought Shasta was the seer because of his pronounced opinion on Nog, but his death says more about the wolves than about Nog. She adds she didn't think he was the seer, though.
Phantom's vote looks good (avoiding a double-lynch), Mith's bad.
She says she's most likely voting for Nog because she doesn't trust him. She's also suspicious of Glirdy.
After Nog's reveal, Fea was undecided about whether to believe him. Her post could have been written by me - I was tempted to believe him but had my doubts because I had been so suspicious of him, and in the end I had to distance myself from it and try to consider his behaviour objectively. Three people voted for someone else than Nog after his reveal, but Fea decided to go and vote for him, never really buying his claim.
She suggested the phantom vote for Nog but said she doesn't know more than anyone else.

Nothing she says about people suggests she was the seer, but her day 2 posting does look seerish - Shasta probably wasn't the seer, her sudden suspicion (and then wavering) on Nog, etc. Regardless of whether she was the seer or not, it's possible the wolves thought so - or wanted us to think they thought so. I'm not totally confident of Fea's innocence after her "hey fellows let's kill me" thingy, but on the other hand I think WolFea would just have done it without giving us a warning.

[Thinlómien]

Commenting while reading...

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Well I think it'd always be usufel for the evil side to know each other. After all, if they manage to identify each other, they can join forces. Which makes this:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

a fair point and makes Boro go quite high on my list of possible cobblers. (Alongside with Phantom, Glirdan, Lottie and several others. I wish I had as many wolf suspects.)

Mmm, people seem to mean that Boro being a cobbler hinting at me means I'm a wolf. Wrong. It only means he thought I'm a wolf, and if you suspect me based on that, you suspect me of being a wolf just because he does. Pretty fishy logic (or high trust in Boro's skills of observance), I'd say.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.
Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

NO!!! (Okay I know I'm arguing with a dead person but this is something I feel rather passionately about.) I agree "innocent" doesn't equal "ordo" like some people seem to think, but "innocent" doesn't include cobbler who's not innocent because they're not on the innocent side!!!

Originally Posted by Fea

Edit: crossed with Glirdy... who seems to have spatula'ed himself from one side of the pan to the other. Which, in my brain, sends him from pan to fire... Ie: he didn't really help his cause.

Totally cracked up at this.

Originally Posted by Lottie

TP's being a cobbler makes Lommy look better

Why?

I'm rather worried I have no more to comment. I'm somehow feeling a bit detached from everything, and I think it must have to do with the fact that we don't know the roles of the dead. I think Nogrod was most likelily a cobbler, but if he was the seer that really sucks. However, his role doesn't matter to me that much, I think tp seems rathe cobblerish in any case.

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.


xed with all

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos.

Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.

Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.

Guess what I'm doing at the moment?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

I wouldn't be that quick to disregard the possibility of her being the seer.

Does not compute. What does that imply?

That he was worried about them finding out his alignment - which would point at his being a wolf. Of course the most sensible thing a basically known cobbler can do in Mandos is to be as chaotic as possible, so I don't know.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

Three are dead and It was clear from Shasta's post. There aren't very many posts today and surely his are the ones were are all interested in. Rather suprised that you aren't.

[A Little Green]

Back at last.

Originally Posted by Agan

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.

My vote for Nog had little to do with Boro's threat, since my reasons for wanting to vote Nessa were valid enough whatever he thought about them. Ending up voting for Nog was exactly as I put it: he was acting more strangely by the minute, while I figured a Nessa-vote would be pretty much a throwaway in any case. And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.

Originally Posted by Nessa

I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves.

Agreed - but an admitted throwaway vote is hardly helpful in finding wolves.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?

That is actually a very good point. I think a part of it was that - quite understandably - all the conversation revolved around those two, and people quite simply didn't come to think about anything else, especially at the very end of the Day with time running out. (Obviously, that was what whichever of the two is a baddie - Nog, basically - must have been aiming at.)

Argh. Still, I'm having doubts about Nog. His frustration with the village didn't seem faked. Basically he just has to be a better actor than I thought because looking at the actual content of his posts there's little chance of him actually being the Seer.


EDIT: x-ed with Lottie and two Agans

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Greenie

And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.

I've been having the same feeling about her for awhile but just didn't know what to make of it. The same applies for Elron and Wilwa. Maybe it's because all three are quiet and have been kind of slipping under my radar that I'm very leery of them. I think I'm going to take a closer look at all three of them.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

I wouldn't be that quick to disregard the possibility of her being the seer.

If she was, she was extremely stupid to suggest the scenario of a wolf going kamikaze and making a seer-reveal on the dead thread.

Originally Posted by Agan

That he was worried about them finding out his alignment - which would point at his being a wolf. Of course the most sensible thing a basically known cobbler can do in Mandos is to be as chaotic as possible, so I don't know.

And he alone could convince innocent!Mänwë and innocent!Shasta to leave him be? I thought Nerwen had something more drastic in mind. I have the feeling someone's keeping information from me.

Originally Posted by Mith

Three are dead and It was clear from Shasta's post. There aren't very many posts today and surely his are the ones were are all interested in. Rather suprised that you aren't.

I didn't say I'm not. In fact, I think he could talk more.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Because you were one of his top suspects.

How does a cobbler's top suspect equal innocent? Or just trusting phantom's brainpower that much?


edit: xed with Boro

[Glirdan]

Day 1

Post #79

First post of the Day and she says this:

And to move on to more productive matters.... This will be just as difficult for the wolves, yes? They won't know who it is they kill, so our information is equal.

A lot of...well...nothing...Nothing of true substance, nothing that is really, as she put it, "productive". She says things that have alredy been said or is just common knowledge.

Post #102

Again, nothing. A one line post saying she doesn't know who to vote for. Doesn't give any thoughts of her own on anything that was said up to this point, doesn't share her thoughts on anybody else. Nothing.

Post #138

Finally gives some thoughts of her own on something that Fea had said, more specifically about Fea's "Deadifying active players" plan. States that she will vote randomly and I quote:

my Day 1 vote will probably be random, and based on knee-jerk reaction, in a wonderfully useless fashion.

Then goes on to banter.

Post #147

Her vote post, voting for Legate (the first one for him of the Day) with this as her reasoning.

Because he voted me. And he's useful/won't muddy the waters in the dead thread.

and then goes on to say this:

Dear heavens, someone shoot me. I just made the worst vote ever, didn't I?

The one thing I like about this is that she did kind of follow through with how she was going to vote. I say kind of because she did give a reason for the vote, although it was out of pure spite.

Day 2

Post #323

First post of the Day. Responds to Legate, admitting her vote was a throwaway and says this to Greenie:

I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves.

A valid enough answer and reasoning.

Aaand, Nog seems to be ruffling everybody feathers, and the whole situation makes me upset. This is more "aggressive" than I've ever seen him in my admittedly small number of games with him, but he doesn't seem to think that of himself. However, the distrust of the other players looks odd. Just plain odd.

I have no idea what to make of this. I wouldn't mind hearing an explanation from her on how everyone else's distrust of Nog is "odd". This is a game of Werewolf. It's what we do, distrust one another until someone is proven innocent.

And the whole Shasta stuff makes sense to me. I don't know who I'll vote. It won't do any good to toss my vote like yesterDay, since it wouldn't affect the lynch, but I don't want a double-lynch. That leaves bandwagoning.

Again, not sure what to make of this. I do know that I don't like this. It doesn't "leave bandwaggoning". Vote for who you think is guilty, not who everyone else is voting for.

Post #336

Votes for phantom because she believe Nog (this was before Agan snapped her trap on Nobbler) and then is gone the rest of the Day. I will give her credit for following her own gut instinct on this one instead of just following the masses.

All in all, I am not very fond of Nessa, she seems to be latching on to everything other people are saying and really only making her own decisions with her votes, which haven't been all that helpful either. I'm tempted to believe one of the following two scenarios: 1) She's a Cobbler or 2) a very confusing innocent.

EDIT: X'ed since last

[Boromir88]

I'm sorry Lommy, when did I hint at you? I only said that I thought your paranoia was due to having your bororadar being flushed down the toilet because of the previous two games, but I wasn't going to write that off as the reason. Now supposedly I'm hinting to you? Umm...where? You came up with a completely bogus theory that I'm the cobbler because I said "steering" and that is close to "seering." Now you're just running with it declaring I'm a cobbler.

And quite frankly, I'm sick of the bogus suspicions that have been thrown all around by phantom, sally, Lottie and now you Lommy. Granted, I realize I'm totally an untrustworthy and tricksy person, and normally with just the baseless suspicions I ignore it. Maybe I should, but it appears to be happening all to frequently right now and by people who I wouldn't expect would just throw out indefensible accusations that can be summed up as...

"I have a fb impression of Boro" (Nog)

"Boro's suspicious. I'm voting for him." (sally)

"I think Boro looks the worst." (phantom)

"Boro said steering! That's like saying seering! Cobbler!" (Lommy)

Come on Lommy, you know I say "see" all the time and know that's never a seer hint, it's just a word I always use. Now apparently I can't say steer without it being some kind of hint.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm sorry Lommy, when did I hint at you? I only said that I thought your paranoia was due to having your bororadar being flushed down the toilet because of the previous two games, but I wasn't going to write that off as the reason. Now supposedly I'm hinting to you? Umm...where? You came up with a completely bogus theory that I'm the cobbler because I said "steering" and that is close to "seering." Now you're just running with it declaring I'm a cobbler.

And quite frankly, I'm sick of the bogus suspicions that have been thrown all around by phantom, sally, Lottie and now you Lommy. Granted, I realize I'm totally an untrustworthy and tricksy person, and normally with just the baseless suspicions I ignore it. Maybe I should, but it appears to be happening all to frequently right now and by people who I wouldn't expect would just throw out indefensible accusations that can be summed up as...

"I have a fb impression of Boro" (Nog)

"Boro's suspicious. I'm voting for him." (sally)

"I think Boro looks the worst." (phantom)

"Boro said steering! That's like saying seering! Cobbler!" (Lommy)

Come on Lommy, you know I say "see" all the time and know that's never a seer hint, it's just a word I always use. Now apparently I can't say steer without it being some kind of hint.

I'm not meaning to insult you by silly suspicion, but I think I had a fair enough point. If you say you believe someone is "steering" it looks too much like "seering". This is not to say you're stupid - quite the contrary, I can't come up with many subtler ways of hinting at the wolves you think somebody is the seer if you're a cobbler yourself. And everybody knows such a scheme is not past you by any means.

As for you hinting at me, well, that's what this (previously quoted) comment sounds a lot like:

Originally Posted by you

I actually feel quite good about Lommy, even with that completely erratic cobbler hinting thing that I supposedly did...? I think Lommy's just trying to recover from smashing up her bororadar from the last few games that she is forcing herself into seeing everything I do as some twisted evil plot, as a form of revenge. Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.

Basically the things you say are: 1) You feel good about me. 2) I think you're a cobbler. 3) I'm unsure because my bororadar is brokey. 4) In truth, my bororadar is fine (although it needs a little update). Ergo, you're saying my bororadar is fine when it says you're a cobbler, Or (hey, just realised, and this is even worse!) it's a bit off because you're not actually a cobbler this time - but a wolf? That's all rather fishy, says I.

That's quite a to the point summary why I think you're doing fishy stuff and it all adds up quite nicely to you being a Bobbler (yay to Greenie for the nickname!).

[satansaloser2005]

Master Phantom has been held up, and will not be back until later this evening.


And now back to the massive reread. I'm currently still on page three. Help me.

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
Green. She feels too smooth, if you know what I mean, and there's something fishy about her voting (she seems to be choosing the easy path). I am concerned about her.
ed. Slipping under my radar, except for the bad-looking first post on day 2 (incidentally, I think it was Greenie who first brought it up, or if not first she's the one I remember).
Lottie. Feels slightly off although not as badly as on day 1.
Boro. Out of him and Lommy, he looks worse. It does look like he was trying to hint at her, and now that she's suspecting him because of it, trying to save his face.

INNOCENT
sally. I thought her innocent on day 1 and little has changed since, mainly because she hasn't posted much. I could have put her down as 'Either' but I would have felt bad about my innocent list being so short.
Glirdan. Saying Shasta reminded him of Seertanis doesn't necessarily make him evil in my opinion. His posts look genuine to me... but I am incredibly bad at reading Glirdy.
Nerwen. Has done nothing to merit suspicion so she's here although I know how good a baddie she can be.
phanty. There are things which speak in his favour (his day 1 vote working to prevent a potential multiple lynch, his points against Nog yesterday, etc). I am not convinced of his innocence but he looks good enough for now, and besides he won't be my problem after today.

EITHER
Legate. Tending innocent, but his insistence about a cobbler lynch benefiting the wolves more than us is weird. Last time I played with him, I disagreed with him but he kept giving me really innocent vibes which hasn't happened in this game.
Lommy. I keep flip-flopping on her. I understand the people who say she isn't being herself... but she isn't that different either, and why would she bus Boro if she thought they were baddies together?
wilwa. Not enough substance to form an opinion. What I've seen looks innocent, but see what I just said about her a couple of posts ago - she's capable of fooling anyone.
Mith. I honestly don't know about her. She always looks innocent to me, but people have been suspicious of her voting etc so I'm not confident enough to consider her totally innocent.
Nessa. I don't see why all this suspicion, but she hasn't done much to make herself look innocent.
Angu. I wasn't able to decide where to put him so he's quite literally here. I find it impossible to read him. I'd like to go through his posts but I have to leave for class in nine hours and I'd also like to get some sleep.

DEAD
Mänwe. Innocent enough, but why did he vote for himself instead of Nogrod? I will probably learn this toNight, but it will be too late.
Nogrod. Cobbler or wolf.
BG. Assuming ordo for now.
Fea. Innocent.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Why?

Because you were one of his top suspects. Of course, even without that element, I'm all confused again, because you've seemed a lot more innocent today than you did the Days before.

I thought I was going to have a ton of time to post toDay, but as it turns out, I'll be able to get online just before DL and a little bit throughout the Day.

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that. She also doesn't seem like a no-trail kill, mostly because there are others who would have left less of a trail, although she'd be more of a no-trail than a Seer kill. Maybe they thought she was too dangerous? But in that case, she's just being dangerous in the Dead Thread instead, which, while better for the wolves, isn't, I think, enough of a reason to spend the Night-kill on a person.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that.

Oh, not even her seeming certainty that Shasta wasn't the seer or her reluctance to believe Nog?

I am feeling bad about Boro so I'm now planning to reread his posts quickly and see if I find anything worth commenting on...

[Aganzir]

DAY 1
Phantom assigned a role to everybody at the beginning of day 1 calling Boro a cobbler. Boro made a sports-related joke in return. Nog pinged on his radar after like one or two posts because he was the first to start talking serious stuff. According to Boro, he was trying to steer and spin what he wanted to spin and looked bleaker than the situation merited.
He was feeling good about Lommy (who had called him a cobbler):

--- Even if I think she had a nice working bororadar. It just needed updating, like a 2.0 version, or Bororadar Premium Edition.

He chastised Glirdan and Legate about exaggerating his early suspicion of Nog, and voted for Legate. This looks reasonable enough, unlike most other things he said or did on day 1.

DAY 2
He explains his Legate vote a bit further, then says that in a game like this it's important to keep the voting close. This rings false to me. Firstly, it makes multiple lynches easier. Secondly, if someone appears much more suspicious than the others, the village usually wants her dead. This doesn't happen if we don't bandwagon. Thirdly, the votes don't have to be even in order for us to learn what the DL voters think.
He had Greenie, Nerwen, sally, me (to be honest I'm quite upset about my threat level being considered that of a koala ) and Fea listed as Koalas. Nog and Glirdan looked the worst to him, and he considered voting for one of them or the phantom. He's convinced at least one of them is evil, probably more (Glirdy at least a cobbler, Nog looking desperate). He disapproved of Greenie's plan to vote for Nessa just because she might be an easy bandwagon target if people start having doubts about lynching one of the aforementioned three.
He then voted for Nog, saying it's no good to insinuate players are cheating and he's confident about his vote.
After Nog's revelation, he said there's no way to prove if he's telling the truth. He didn't make up his mind about him at all. He then discussed why Nog said the phantom was a cobbler - if he was a wolf, it would've made more sense to offer the name of a fellow if he wanted us to believe him, but saying someone is a cobbler isn't the best way to save oneself. When I first read this I thought it was Boro's explanation for believing Nog's claim (which I found extremely fishy) but now that it isn't 4 am anymore, I see it wasn't the case and it actually makes sense. Hmm okay then there's his next post where his opinion changes (after phantom corrected him about the rules) so I don't know what he meant after all...

I think Boro could go either way. Especially some of that Lommy stuff and the thing about keeping the votes even. Suspecting Noggins doesn't tell us much about Boro because Nog was probably a cobbler and therefore they wouldn't have known of each other even if both are baddies.

I have been writing this on and off and haven't really read anything after my last post. Will be back later.