Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, I'm wondering– is it safe to assume that Shastanis Lúthien and Beranzir are going to use Mith's odd-even plan?

I'm going to assume it.

[the phantom]

Looking back on the instructions it seems to me that the Dead checked Lommy last night (since she was the first to reach the total).

Did we ever specify if odds or evens meant guilty or innocent?

If not then we need to post that so that one of them on that thread can see it here before they start voting.

[the phantom]

And about the double lynch- honestly I'm not even a little bit sorry. Heh- I actually wasn't expecting the double due to the fact that there was the extra-vote power out there (I completely forgot the fact that Agan hadn't voted either of the top two candidates, plus Shasta didn't vote, and those two were pretty well guaranteed to have the power) but I'm glad I finally offed Lommy, and I'm anxious to see what she was.

As far as Nessa... We ought to debate tomorrow (or late today after the vote is decided) if we'd rather have our latest lynch checked or her, but that's not an issue for now.

[Boromir88]

I lied.

Originally Posted by the phantom

As far as Nessa... We ought to debate tomorrow (or late today after the vote is decided) if we'd rather have our latest lynch checked or her, but that's not an issue for now.

No. It's best if we tell the dead exactly what we want now. Leaving to decide this later in the day will only clutter up the lynch, and also make it easier for any baddies to mess up and put an end to Agan's plan.

If you want to wait to see if you think it would be better to let Nessa go and the dead check who we lynch today. Fine. But I say we tell them the plan now.

What I mean is, EVERYONE, and I mean everyone. Besides just making your lynch vote, tell the dead who you want to check.

I suggest. "Dead ones. Check ______" (insert Nessa or Today's lynch)

Dead people. Go by majority rules. If it's a tie, go by the person who first reached the vote.

Agree this is a straight forward plan the dead can follow? Excellent. Moving on...

[Mithalwen]

Glad as I am that I have said something sensible for once, it does occur that we could totally eliminate any wolf anticipation by just stating the criteria for the day depending on who we have left - There are lots of ways of doing it someone with numbers in name, one word name.... but for today odds and evens is just fine. Of course we don't have to vary the system at all but if pointing out we could stymies a wolftrick


Are we going to refine it to make clear if Lommie or Nessa or is that too limiting?

[Mithalwen]

Ah so there was a def agreement in case of a double lynch, okies. Well I shall be out for a few hours this morning but on past form will be quiet anyway.

[Mithalwen]

Helloooooooooooooooooooo? I know Ang has had tecnical difficulties via FB ..suppose not alone...

[Anguirel]

Right. Well, sorry about that hiatus within the non-hiatus. It has been, though, quite helpful for my point of view in retrospect; very rarely am I accorded an insight in a werewolf game which is not a bit deranged by me being in the thick of it. Now I can peruse a whole day of 'control'.

I was concerned after a couple of re-readings by just how much mob rule went on during the day of the double-lynching. Very few candidates were seriously proposed, and of course even fewer voted for. Nessa got half a quorum deciding against her before she had said anything (although admittedly partly because she hadn't). phantom said he thought her more cobbler than wolf. I thought that sounded sensible at the time but actually, that is the most passive and uninfluential way to play a cobbler. I reckon there's a slim outside chance she was a silent Mata Hari wolf, but that more likely the situation was Manwe all over again.

Neither, after some thought, did I like what happened to Thinlomien much, although it was even more unstoppable than Nessa, in a different way. Nessa had none but the most threadbare of defences; Lommy somehow enacted just enough of a defence to convince several big guns, otherwise mutually disunited, that she was lying (I'm thinking Boro, phantom, Mith). Not so sure myself. Her attitude reminded me of me. "So what, wolfy," you might respond, and I suppose that's a valid enough question.

But when one is in fact innocent, the mod has handed one a powerful but double-edged weapon - the absolute conviction of inner (sometimes self-) righteousness. Wolves (and cobblers) can try and imitate this feeling's outward radiation, but they never get it quite right. Cf Nogrod, I think. Whereas in my view Shasta, wilwa and Mith have taken that stand, this game, in ways that convinced me, amongs others, then and now. Obviously Shasta now matters less but I remain pretty confident about the other two.

I say that this inner glow of innocence is double-edged, and that it can be self-righteous, because it makes innocents liable to be defensive. They feel frustrated at their attackers because they know they are truthful, and it's tempting to launch into a retaliatory crusade in turn, where innocents hang each other all over the shop. As an innocent (in this case) who enjoys thinking, and is conscious of sounding, like a wolf (cf Fea, Aganzir), I am subject to a related but different problem - I tend to clear people who accuse me too easily, because I know it is reasonable to accuse me.

I shall therefore try to be quite even-handed about Sally, in negative as well as positive ways. She has brought up a persistent, undercoloured, half-jocular thought about me despite not having me to bounce off and react to about it (as Thinlomien got reacted against by her accusers.) She maintains that case into today despite considerable new event - a voting pattern, a double-lynch and a successful Glorfindel save. I can't remember whether she knows I'm a person people like to lynch, but against someone largely absent, I wouldn't call it the boldest of manouevres. I will give it this, though: it's quite original at the moment, more so than either of yesterday's candidates.

So much for Sally, who is one of my suspicions but certainly not supreme among them. That honour goes to Loslote. I believe her implication that she caused the double-lynch by accident, but her stress on this accident, a preemptive fanning off of blame, looks really bad. Also, read her posts yesterday's and no one else's. The consistency of wolf-perspective they show, given their rarity and brevity, is really noticeable. On the whole then I think her guilty of murder rather than of shoemaking. A cobbler wouldn't have bothered to try and excuse that double-lynch to her extent. I would like to lynch Loslote today well ahead of anyone else.

phantom is as so often in a sort of architecturally integral position, where no one has the spirit or strength to conduct archaeological research on him because the operation is megalithic, inconvenient, and a bit dangerous. Unfortunately I myself am firmly in that "no one." I don't want to lynch him yet (and that's a phrase that keeps coming up about him; Boro and Elron both said something of the kind yesterday). I will say this though - I disapprove of his ironclad set of instructions to the dead. We all need absolute flexibility to adapt to new situations, not further rules in a heavily ruled game...

Mith's amendment was therefore helpful as far is went, but it only diluted what I think is innately a bad idea. (I was uneasy too with the number of people who loudly OKed it; the expressive enthusiastic support of a detail; like constitutional reform supporters in other political struggles, they seemed technical, weird and playing a long game...)

Finally, a few observations on the few voices that seem to defy the convention wisdom - even if sometimes very oddly. sally's casually intent pursuit of me is one example. Legate's position that lynching Cobblers is a bad thing (the heir of Nogrod's theory) and overt suspicion of phantom is another. A Little Green, even more radically, still wonders whether Nogrod was perhaps truthful. Glirdan's defence of wilwa is strong, well expressed and convincing - even if arguably only a wolf has the knowledge to be so persuasive.

I think much of the stuff in that last paragraph is mistaken on specifics, but all the same if we want to face the full range of possibilities we need more thinking like it.

On the whole if I had to bet now I'd go for a triumvirate of Glirdan, Sally and Loslote, so I'd better check if there are any actual relationships between them...

[Boromir88]

This morning, I was having the same problems as Ang. The BD was temporarily not loading.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Glad as I am that I have said something sensible for once, it does occur that we could totally eliminate any wolf anticipation by just stating the criteria for the day depending on who we have left - There are lots of ways of doing it someone with numbers in name, one word name.... but for today odds and evens is just fine. Of course we don't have to vary the system at all but if pointing out we could stymies a wolftrick

Well, I think the odds and evens is simple and can't be affected by the lynches. The only way it gets screwed up is if the baddies hijack the dead thread. But as long as the dead know what we want them to do, and there's a trail, Agan's plan will continue to work.

Which is why I brought up yesterday, if the dead went with Agan's plan than Nessa went unchecked, for the plan to continue being of use, we're going to have to tell the dead to either check the Nessa or today's lynch. Phantom wanted to put this off until later, because maybe finding out today's lynch could be more informative then finding out Nessa's role. Which is a fair enough point, but if we wait to spin around in circles about it, it's going to get all jacked up.

I'm proposing a method that will

1) Tell the dead whether we want them to check Nessa or Today's lynch.

2) So we have a clear trail to follow for ourselves, and we don't screw up what the dead are trying to tell us.

So, instead of just our lynch votes, I think we make it plain to see what we want the dead to do. Easiest thing I can think of is.

Check _____ (insert Nessa or Today's lynch )

Dead will then go by majority rules, and if there's some tricky attempt to tie it. Then the first person who reached the vote total.

This way dead will see what we want them to do, and can continue giving the extra vote with the odds/evens plan. And we also have a trail to follow back to, so we don't screw up our end in botching what info the dead give us. Make sense? Simple?

Edit: crossed since phantom's post.

[the phantom]

(Here's the post I was going to post a few hours ago before the site went down.)

Originally Posted by Boro

This nullifies that double-lynch yesterday *glares at phantom and Lottie*.

Oh, whatever. Some people wanted Nessa, others wanted Lommy. Why don't you wait and see what they are before glaring.

Originally Posted by Boro

One more thing before sleepy time...Glorfy. Reveal when you want to, don't listen to phantom.

Whatever. If Glorfy saved himself last night then there isn't any reason not to reveal. He's going to die tonight anyway. May as well know the identity of one person.

Originally Posted by Boro

No. It's best if we tell the dead exactly what we want now.

Well then- what do you think? I would say that if the Dead find Lommy to be guilty then they should just keep checking our lynches, but if she turns out innocent they should check Nessa, for it would perhaps make that lynch particularly telling.

Originally Posted by Ang

That honour goes to Loslote. I believe her implication that she caused the double-lynch by accident, but her stress on this accident, a preemptive fanning off of blame, looks really bad. Also, read her posts yesterday's and no one else's. The consistency of wolf-perspective they show, given their rarity and brevity, is really noticeable. On the whole then I think her guilty of murder rather than of shoemaking. A cobbler wouldn't have bothered to try and excuse that double-lynch to her extent. I would like to lynch Loslote today well ahead of anyone else.

I will give her a read-over.

Originally Posted by Ang

Legate's position that lynching Cobblers is a bad thing (the heir of Nogrod's theory) and overt suspicion of phantom is another.

Yeah, I've been wondering if Legate's ill-founded (I believe) attack on me is a sign of innocence, for I cannot imagine a Wolf inviting that sort of thing. I mean really, if you've managed to stay off of Phantom's radar you'd have to be completely unafraid of death to launch any but the most careful and logically sound attack. Or is he counting on that? Risky I'd say.

Daughter's position on me is the more sensible if one is looking simply to survive. Voice a suspicion, but don't actually go so far as to poke at me. Hmmmm... I agree with Ang on this point- that's kind of suspicious.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Looking back on the instructions it seems to me that the Dead checked Lommy last night (since she was the first to reach the total).

Did we ever specify if odds or evens meant guilty or innocent?

If not then we need to post that so that one of them on that thread can see it here before they start voting.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Since Agan won't be back and Shasta isn't around shall we tell them to use odd number placement on the day's living list for wolf and even for non-wolf for their double vote?

So, if they follow that, then a double-vote to any of the following would mean "Lommywolf!": Glirdan, Elra, Lottie, Legate, phantom or Mith.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, if they follow that, then a double-vote to any of the following would mean "Lommywolf!": Glirdan, Elra, Lottie, Legate, phantom or Mith.

Okay, yes, let's go ahead and agree to that right now, plain to see.

ATTENTION DEAD PEOPLE!!

If Lommy is a Wolf, give an extra vote to one of these-
Glirdan
Elrond's Daughter
Lottie
Legate
Phantom
Mith

[the phantom]

All right- time for me to start getting ready for sleep. I have to get up early and shovel... Ugh...

[Boromir88]

I take this to mean Glorfindel made a good save last night! *and there was much rejoicing...yay*

This nullifies that double-lynch yesterday *glares at phantom and Lottie*.

Ok, so the dead convened yesterday and the unknown options would have been Nessa, Lommy, Nog, and Fea. Correct?

Late in the DL Agan came up with a plan to transfer information from the dead thread to us, by finding the identity of the player we lynch the previous day. And for extra insurance in case of a double-lynch it would be the first person who reached in lynch vote. This would make it Lommy.

I know no one's going to believe me when I say it, but I'm neither cobbler nor wolf. We can make use of what the dead found out yesterday if we are clear about the hint we want. The time for debating this is over and done yesterday, we got to get moving. If I know Agan, she's going to be a drill sergeant, so unless the threads been hijacked by Nog and taken over by baddies. Her and Shasta will get done what we want, and unless the innocents have gone insane or just stopped participating, we can trust the dead if we listen to them.

The buck stops here, this is what we're doing. Mith's idea with the odds and evens is perfect. And for extra insurance, so that the lynch today has NO effect on the hint the dead give us...

Dead people. If Lommy's a wolf, make your vote for one of the odds players on the living list that Rikae posted to started the day. If she's not a wolf, make it an even player.

Edit: crossed with several...including Nerwen and phantom's messages for the dead. Looks like we all have come to the same decision. Good.

One more thing before sleepy time...Glorfy. Reveal when you want to, don't listen to phantom.

[Loslote]

Well, well, well.

I didn't mean to tie the vote there yesterDay, and I did make a rather odd face there (something along the lines of o.O, only more so), but Glorfy's save sort of evened out the numbers a teensy bit. I consider it a good exchange, really - someone who could have been a wolf was killed instead of someone who couldn't have. So, all in all, I'm a lot less head-bang-y than I was at the end of yesterDay.

EDIT: xed with Phantoms

[Glirdan]

Okay, I've kept my eyelids open long enough now that I can't keep them open any longer and my brain is mush thus making me incapable of proper thought formulation. I"m going to bed now. I'll be back later in the Day.

PS: I'll be voting early toDay as I have to work till right up to DL.