A Measure of Success

[Formendacil]

My own RP credentials are somewhat thinner than others here, but I've been reading along, and hopefully you'll forgive me contributing. As a RP mod from a (somewhat poorer quality, writing-wise) forum elsewhere, I don't have any solutions... but I do have my two pence.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I would like to see more activity on the RPG threads. However, I kind of wonder if changing the rules and loosening things up will really be effective. I mean, we don't have very many new comers anyway. If loosening up means getting some old players back, I'm all for it. But it won't necessarily bring in any more new players.

Quite honestly, I think that there would be more RPing if WW was not such an over-arching part of this entire forum. So many people will spend HOURS every other day on a WW game and not show up at all for weeks on any RPGs they're part of. Is that a problem? Well, no. As Dury said, the whole purpose of this forum is for people to have fun. Is it annoying? Heck, yes, for those of us who aren't obsessed.

Folwren makes a couple good points here. The first, in particular, bears noting, I think. The Downs is not attracting new members in droves, and those it does are not always likely to be RPers. While I think it's possible they stay away from the RP fora because they're a monolithically daunting, separate, and rule-laden part of the forum, the fact of the matter is that we don't have enough new members to really be focused on getting them into RPs.

Thus, I agree with her about needing to focus on player retention/getting back old players. Speaking for myself, the never-ending games are killer, and need tighter--and shorter--timeframes (in this respect, I agree with Mnemo generally). Not only would I be more likely to sign up for a two-week campaign or a month-long story that I actually thought would take that long, I think everyone would be more likely to actually participate, once joined.

Folwren's point about WW is valid... but I have no more solution than she does, though I do want to go on record as saying that WW siphons off a lot of RPing energy from the stable, committed members of the forum, and that as long as it continues, we're going to have a personnel problem here.

*IF* we could relatively sure that a two/three week or month-long game would actually last that long, I think one could reasonably ask players to refrain from playing WW at the same time... but, obviously, that might detract from people's desire to RP.

[Folwren]

I brought up this subject with my sister, who was here at one time as Finduilas. Anyway, she said that ensuring shorter games would make it easier for players to commit. She said, "If a game was going to last two weeks, I could commit to posting once a day for two weeks. But if it's going to last two years, I can't commit to that." So, she thought shorter games would be a good idea.

[Nogrod]

I do warmly welcome this discussion taking place.

There are so many things to comment on... but let me make a few.


I think one of the main reasons to many games stalling (besides WW ) is that the ambitions of the mods of the games - and the possible "inner circle" of writers - have sky-rocketed.

My first RPG was Arry's Outracing the Flames on 2006. There was a simple mission for the players and the mod had planned a few obstacles on the road. Even if it went for longer that had been planned, it ended in 5 months and in an orderly fashion. The last one here I think?

Now as it was my first RPG ever, I might feel some warmth to the experience it would not deserve otherwise, but it was well-run game that stayed focused. And the thing was; it was kept simple.

I have written in a few RPG's after that (Treachery of Men & The Fellowship of the Fourth Age come to mind as experiences), but they were already quite complicated in what came into the plotlines and detail. So many players dropped off when time went by as it took so long and they required such involvement.

Now one could say that hey, that's why we have these different "levels" of RPG'ing. In Shire (Outracing the Flames) we have these fairly simple games and in Rohan the more requiring ones (ToM & FotFA). And it is a fair point.

But it seems we have not have those easy and straightforwards Shire-games in years - and the ambitions of the Rohan-games have gone maybe too far?

Don't read me wrong here, I love those multilayered and sophisticated games that have a lot of complexity myself (and I couldn't see myself writing in something so tightly mod-guided/dictated & simplified game as the "Outracing the Flames" was anymore).


So if we have both a) less new people joining, and b) nothing to offer them (the simpler "first stage" games), then no wonder the renaissance will not dawn on 'Downs roleplaying section. I've seen many newcomers joining those more ambitious games and dropping off... (to be honest a few "seniors" did drop off as well - mainly because of time constraints, which should be telling...)


Also I think it's important to remember that the Mead Halls should be basically very different from the more focused RPG's. And at least on paper (well, on screen) the idea of there being two different Mead Halls, one for the "beginners" and one for the more "advanced" is a good one as they can then have two different focuses.

When I joined the Green Dragon back in the days it was more or less just one party going on where the idea was to socialise with others, learn the basics of RPG'ing with other players - and then move on to the "real games". Like you pop in at an inn, meet some people and have a drink with them - and continue your journey, maybe with a new friend. I haven't followed the Golden Perch that much but from the little I have seen, it is different.

Also I think that it is a good idea in principle that the Eorling Mead Hall / Scarburg Mead Hall should be more plot oriented while still retaining the air of being a place you can just put your nose into and join the game anyday.

But as a co-mod of the current Scarburg Mead Hall I must say that the concept isn't working anymore that well it could, or it did. The open-endedness of the plotlines and timelines, added with the different RL situations of the players over long periods of time, individual levels of interest in particular plots being played etc. make a plot driven Mead Hall kind of a hybrid between the "just socialising" games and the real "plot driven" games. It could take on the best features of both (and at times it actually does it) but it can also take on the worst features of both.


But if there are considerably less new people joining in, it is clear there is no return to the ongoing parties of the old Green Dragon, after which those keeping it up naturally & understandaby turn into more plot- or friend-based writing which further scares outsiders away from posting.

At the same time there is the danger that the Rohanian Mead Hall will stagnate into a game played by the few "striders" already known to each other and where newcomers don't dare to come into as it looks to complicated and too much of an insider thing. (We actually had a burst of fresh blood there when the modship changed there two years ago and managed to recruit a host of new writers there - sadly only a few of them are left today.



So what am I suggesting after all this rambling?

I think we should do well to open some fairly basic games and try to lure the new 'Downers into them. I mean we do have them all the time - and I actually think we have gained a lot more active 'Downers the last half year than in a long time...

That would require a mod who was not trying to fullfill her or his ambitions there but being more like an experienced fellow encouraging the newcomers to delve into RPG'ing while keeping it simple and doable. And this is not pointing fingers at anyone. What I think is that we need someone to mod those "Shire-games" who would be not too enthusiastic about it being her/his game, but like a pedagogical person as a forum for the ones who play to learn their skills and get excited about it. (Okay, the teacher-me speaking here, I can see)


Also we should consider the role and meaning of the Mead Halls again. How to make the Golden Perch a place new people would crave to go into? How to make the Scarburg Mead Hall take the best features of both open and plot-driven games while avoiding the bad ones?


And in the end, we should also acknowledge that the world is not the same it was five or ten years ago - and thus also people and their interests are different. So not everything is the fault of you and me - the mods and active players of the RPG's. It's just the wolrd that changes - and we all with it.


EDIT: SOrry this became this long. I never seem to be able to be concise...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

a few of these principles, I have a game written up that would take two months/eight weeks. The plot is simple, and there are built in check points each week in terms of where the writing needs to aim. The construction is simple in terms of required characters, so it would be easy to write people out if necessary, but probably wouldn't be necessary.

And I have no problem cracking the whip to keep things moving along. As Nog says, the game wouldn't be an epic adventure, full of modly grandeur and personal fulfillment; it would be a basic example and/or pedagogical experiment.

Is this something there is interest in watching play out? With it we would see pretty easily and pretty quickly if making changes to game length and complexity requirements would draw a firmer commitment from more people.

After all, it's very well and good to discuss potential solutions, but without seeing if they work pragmatically, it's all just hot air...

[Nogrod]

A very good idea Fea.

And I would also like to see some "recruitment" taking place - like asking the new 'Downers to join and try it out - whilst having a few "seniors" around in the game to give an example (like either parties involved all the time or as "visiting characters" - which we used to have back in the days). Not too high or ambitious or self-serving, but like they were not too interested in their own characters doing the best game ever, but playing it thus the newbies could get the max out of it.

If we're going to try that, I could try to find time for it to participate in that mode of playing it for the others.

And really, when has there been a Shire game on offer the last time? Valier's game* starting like three years ago?


* That's actually a telling case. I remember Valier asking me if I would like to join the game, it was something like early fall, and I had to decline it as I had so many things going on that time both in RL and 'Downs. But as I was interested in the game we decided that I should then make a character that would come in at a later stage, quite like on the first new twist of the game planned. Well, the game has never reached the point my character could come in - even if it has been near it a few times during the years...

[Bêthberry]

Just wanted to pop in and say that, as I have lurked from time to time at the Scarburg Mead Hall, I've been impressed with the way that it is being modded.

I like how Noggie asks questions of the characters, basing action on the characters' behavioural traits, as well as offering other open-ended possibilities. My guess is this approach has been responsible for the on-going participation of many of the new Rohan gamers. I think I see a teacher's hand at play here--and I mean that in the most positive light and not at all a pedagogical pedantry.

It's been years since I read anything in The Shire and just as long since I've had much time to devote to RPGing, so that's about all I can add.

It's good to see some discussion here and that people still care about gaming on the Downs.

[Mithadan]

Agreed. It is good to see some needed discussion. Frankly, we need a bit more.

There are a few relatively active RPGs on the forums, and I'd like to see more players post and give their views, before beginning to try and focus our considerations. I note some obvious holes or omissions in people's posts, whether intentional or unknowing. Can anyone guess at what I am talking about?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have very ambiguous feelings about the role of WW games in the development of the Downs forum. On the one hand, they have drawn in new members and formed a feeling of community that is positive for the site. On the other hand, they have taken a lot of energy away from the Books forum, which is my main concern, and from the RPs, in which I was also involved in the past. Formy makes a valid point:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I do want to go on record as saying that WW siphons off a lot of RPing energy from the stable, committed members of the forum, and that as long as it continues, we're going to have a personnel problem here.

*IF* we could relatively sure that a two/three week or month-long game would actually last that long, I think one could reasonably ask players to refrain from playing WW at the same time... but, obviously, that might detract from people's desire to RP.

I wonder - is there any way to get dedicated WW players interested in "normal" RPs again? Could a story be devised that is as much fun for them as a TiG game? After all, WW *is* roleplaying.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

...our games have become too long and complicated.

I remember being involved in a game (Corsets and Corsairs) that was fun at the start, then got so involved in subplots that it became unwieldy, slow and complicated. I don't even remember if it ever finished - I lost interest.

Probably the most interesting game I played (aside from the marvellous Entish Bow series, of course, which was something special that can never be repeated - like Yavanna's Trees or the Silmarils) was a two-person RPG involving Rimbaud and myself, with occasional guest appearances by Bêthberry. It had a clear objective and a simple plot, a minimum of characters, and a time limit. We told our story (in this case even without a discussion thread, since we did our plotting by way of chat and PM) and had fun doing so.

Isn't the time committment factor one of the central strengths of WW games? I think we can learn from their success and try to adapt their best ideas to RPing.


Thanks to Snowdog and Durelin for getting this discussion going: I'd love to see RPs being more active again - not just for involving newcomers, but also for getting more of us oldtimers active again. I had signalled interest in a game some time ago; unfortunately, it never got off the ground.

[Dimturiel]

I too agree with the fact that the games need to take a shorter while. I usually start playing an RPG with quite a lot of enthusiasm, but if the game stalls, I tend to lose interest, whether because real life problems take over or because I decide to focuse on my own stories, or maybe simply because I tend to have a shorter attention spam. And once the interest is gone, it is harder for me to get back on track. A fixed timeline would help me concentrate better.

I also have to say that I do not mind the rules and structuralization and I tend to agree with Lommy that some degree of commitment and ethusiasm needs to be shown. I don't think rules would interfere with us having fun (although I admit that my ideas of fun are rather nerdy, after all I had fun researching for my diploma paper, although in my defense, it was about Tolkien). And after all, any kind of game should have some rules.

[Mithalwen]

I write this in full awareness of my many and varied inadequacies as a RPGer. I am aware that many respects that I fail - yes my personal life has made writing genuinely impossible for sixmonths (and I have been correspondingly quiet across the forum) but I cannot claim that there have not been lengthy absences with less reason. Anyway I have participated in several Shire RPGs, dipped my toe in Rohan and have tried to encourage activity in the Perch. Anyway for what it is worth these are my observations.

I do think Werewolf is a factor. It does take a lot of attention and creativity and before its inception the RPG discussion threads were possibly the more sociable ones on forum where chat is strongly discouraged. Personally one of the reasons I stopped playing regularly was that I wanted to RPG more. H Yes it has brought some new members but they often don't get further than mirth. However it isn't the only thing and WW does show that it is possible to write a lot in a short time. Most ww games are longer than most RPGs.

Another factor is that a lot of players simply moved to a different stage in their lives - the young teenagers who perhaps came to the books via the films had important exams and went to unversity and so forth and I think we did lose a lot at the same time and so a lot of impetus is lost and a downward spiral becomes a vicious circle. For this reason I think we do need to review the structures before the likely influx from the next lot of films.

The problems with actual games I have encountered or observed are game owners bailing out, games as "star vehicles" - if the other players are merely a backing chorus for a Prima donna or uomo you may as well just write fan fic. You can't expect people to show a lot of commitment to someone else' s ego trip.

The structure of the game can also make a huge difference. It is harder to keep things going and up together if the roles are divided into various factions operating semi independently, it is harder if the game is set in a very specific time and place -especially if you are nerdy like me and want to work with or at least not against what Tolkien wrote. You can also hamsting yourself with your character. So basically easier games are the ones where you aren't bound by a very specific geography or history, the players are able to interract fairly freely un hindered by race or status (it will be long ere I saddle my self again with a character who is the servant of the only other person who speaks the same language ).

I certainly don't think the location of a game is an automatic indicator of standard - Island of Sorrow was a Shire game presumably only because Anguirel was a first time "owner". It had a group of highly skilled writers and extremely literary. Inexperienced players benefit from writing with the more skilled - I know I learnt a lot from writing with people here even if if it hasn't manifested itself in m own efforts yet! There are players who are generous in their writing - while developing and playing their own role they give opportunities to others to build theirs - in my own experience Aman and Envinyatar stand out in this respect but there have been others - Folwren in her role as Innkeeper particularly.

I haven't finished - I just have to be away for a bit but I do have a few more constructive points to add to the observations.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I certainly don't think the location of a game is an automatic indicator of standard - Island of Sorrow was a Shire game presumably only because Anguirel was a first time "owner". It had a group of highly skilled writers and extremely literary. Inexperienced players benefit from writing with the more skilled - I know I learnt a lot from writing with people here even if if it hasn't manifested itself in m own efforts yet!

very nice of you to say so Mith. But in his next owned game Anguirel proved to be one of those awful absentee fathers. I'm still pretty ashamed of that. It was difficult re: real life, but everyone has that excuse. I've been quite commitment light as a player in other games too. I'm very proud of Island of Sorrow but really it's the only thing of its kind I've seen through, and I had a lot of exceptionally expert help...

yup, so dropping out is a problem. I've done it often and it's bad for the soul. It should be discouraged as much as in Werewolf. It would be nice if that meant faster games, I agree

[Mithalwen]

Don't be too hard on yourself Ang. Sometimes life gets in the way and that is especially likely to happen when a couple of months turn into a couple of years.

It is hard to make rules for this kind of thing because so much of it is a balancing act - you need some discipline to keep things going and maintain a reasonable standard, but also flexibility to cooperate with others and allow for interesting diversions, the confidence to progress stories and the humility to allow others to do so.

I do quite like the idea of The Shire being a more structured and supported place and Rohan being more where you stand on your own two feet. I think you do have to have somewhere where new players can find their feet without spoiling the enjoyment of others. And while noone likes their character being bunnied you do need to make it possible for people to interract with your character and not have a hissy fit if they don't psychically respond to your character in the way you want them too (sorry I may be venting years worth of frustration and minor irritation!).

Would it help to say game facilitator rather than owner, or steward? Obviously if you plan a game you have plans, you can lay out a framework of expectations but give the players rein as to how they are achieved.

I did quite a bit of work developing the seed called "Golden and Proud" back in the day (and still have the notes somewhere if anyone is interested) until it was effectively if not perhaps deliberately sabotaged (did I mention I was venting?) andif you have planned a journey to Dol Amroth for a specific purpose you might be miffed if they took themselves off to discover the source of the Anduin but you do need to allow some freedom.

Different "owners" may have different expectations and it rather depends on the game. Personally if I ever run a game I'll be only too grateful for plot ideas (I am stronger by far at character than action) but give your horse an inappropriate name and I may have to kill you (have never recovered from a game elsewhere where Elrond's horse was called Peanut).

It is alright..the nurse is coming with my pills now

[Nogrod]

Okay, I have tried to push this issue of werewolfing in contrast to RPG'ing away as I have thought it's quite hard to compare the two as they have such different qualities - and maybe also because I have thought it more being driven by some envy on part of those who don't play WW for the enthusiasm and involvedness people show in WW-games - and maybe the limited time active ww-players might show for RPG's while a ww-game is on; two things I have not been too keen to express openly. Well it's done now.

But after reading all these recurrent references to the ww-games I must say I have been forced to think about it again, and hopefully in a constructive manner.

Even if there is the same problem with ww-games, that some people join in and then do not play actively enough to the majority-tastes (or just drop out), there clearly seems to be a kind of enthusiasm, energy and commitment one rarely finds in the RPG's. Although I do remember more or less as hectic feelings with RPG's as well, but those have been rare occasions.


So which are the strenghts of the ww-games and which of them could be carried into RPG'ing?


1) The prospect of winning or losing & having sides where your effort does not only count as your own succes but also as all your fellows' success.

Okay, I'm not sure I'd wish to play an RPG where there would be two sides trying to win the "game". That would be nightmarish - unless it was something like a very special game between very good friends in good humour (so not anything like a general guideline to RPG'ing).

But what we could bring from there is the idea that every individual player has a stake and feels responsible for the success of the game as such. And I do actually think that some of those old-time Shire RPG's actually had something of this in them when the mod threw all kinds of obstacles into the way of the players' characters and they had to come over with them together.

2) The ww-deadlines are sharp and decisive - and fast. If you don't make it you really stand for apologising.

Even if I can't see a 24-hour deadlines in an RPG, it is clear strict deadlines do help. Now how that could be transformed into RPG-world is another matter. If you lose a DL in an RPG then just part of the story stays untold, but in a ww-game it can really affect the outcome of the game - for you and your side (all those who rely on you as well as you rely on them). So we come back to the earlier point: the stakes are higher in a ww-game.

Also one knows from the beginning the time-limit the game will take - which ranges from a week to two or three at most. So it is quite a clear-cut thing: you don't have to commit yourself into a game for an unlimited time - and if you get killed it might even end sooner for you. So in a ww-game you play for the right to be able to play on the next day - the possibility of being thrown away from the game works as a big incentive to try your best.

I can see no humane or literarilly satisfying way of applying this to the RPG's...

3) The ww-games can give a player very strong emotional kicks (for good or bad), but most of the time they stay within limits.

These emotional "kicks" in ww have turned a few times into personal tragedies making people leave the playing community - and that is sad. And it's not too uncommon that on some stage of a game people's feelings get a bit overheated (I should know it as I have been guilty of that a few times), but generally people do overcome those and in the after-game discussions they are already congratulating the other side and giving high-fives to everyone.

The problem with the RPG's clearly is that if you get people emotionally as bound as you get people bound in a ww-game, then the bad side of it can be just devastating (as we have a few very bad examples in the RPG-fora). I mean, after the baddies drive a lynch to get rid of you as the seer of the village in a ww it feels soo terrible, and you feel like you'd wish to curse the whole world - but you are able to look at the game with fresh eyes after you have slept one night. In an RPG, on the contrary, when your character and all you have invested in her/him gets somehow sidetracked or denied in any plot-driven happenstance it probably feels so much worse that it will be much harder to come over it by just sleeping one night on it.

4) In ww the game rules are from one point very clear and decisive and make it easy to play, but on the other hand the social rules are much looser than in an RPG. In a ww game you can just socialise, have fun with people you know already or get to know new people - in a way you seem fit in that particular game. Also in a ww game you can just make a fool out of you on one post and then get "dead serious" the next. It's up to your every whim...

In an RPG it feels different... in a RPG you're anticipated to write coherently: as others can use your character to ease the storytelling - which is a good thing to my mind - your character needs to be somewhat predictable for that to work. I mean, sure a character in an RPG can surprise others but the general requirements are much tougher even if they are not exact rules as such. This is somethnig we have nothing to change - and need not change.



Okay, I have been thinking about these things while writing these down so I had no clear view about what is it I would come out with... But what I have learned is that my initial feeling of the comparison being hard to make is even stronger I thought.

But is there anything, except the lengthy ramble?

WW-games manage to make their players involved and feeling they have a stake in the game. So here I should go Fea's and Durelin's way. Give the players more stakes and they might feel more involved.

But also, the question of some real timelines could help - in the case there is the motivation to make a difference: otherwise the DL's will just hamper the game setting up further obstacles to some players.

Getting people more involved emotionally is a double-edged sword. In a way it could make people more involved but then we also risk more personal catastrophies we really don't want. Getting too involved is as bad as being uninvolved, well it is worse.

Looser "social rules" of feeling free to play in totally unpredictable manner might be tried in Mead Halls (well, in Shire), but I'm afraid nowhere else - if not in some special game. But basically that freedom doesn't seem to fit the RPG's in general.

The problem of mainly socialising with others you like vs. playing as trying to be able to play for the plot is actually a big question with the RPG's we should think more about.

Also, part of the appeal of the ww-games is competition / competitiveness - even if I think most of us regular werewolvers do not take that as the primary motivation to those games (as we just love to play itr together), I think it has a role to play there. And competitiveness is quite far away from my idea of a good RPG... quite the contrary.


~*~

A short add-on in respect to Gondor role-playing (in response to mark12_30)... I have always thought that to be the most elitist writing-ground of all, only fit to the English majors or at least to the well-educated and literary excelling humanists who have English as their native tongue. So I have never even peeked in as a non-native speaker, as I have felt it's beyond my level of writing-skills in English. I have nothing against there being levels of playing that reach above my skills, but I do feel the attitude you show is not exactly welcoming to anyone outside some closed circles... which exactly is one of the problems in the RPG's.

Heh, don't read me wrong, I'm not aspiring to write to Gondor myself and make a case for it. I think there is a general problem here - not your fault mark, or anyone's in particular - that the diffrent levels of writing also create castes we tend to follow... I mean, if I think like this about Gondor roleplaying while being quite at home with Rohan and feeling a bit too old to take part in Shire... then what does it tell us about the situation? How many people think Rohan too high for them? How many people think a Shire game too low for them?

Why I speculate about willing to partake on a Shire game first and foremost as in an advisory role, like not playing it so much to myself but to be a kind of pedagogical aid to the newcomers?

I think this thing you oldies talk of as the re-structuring of the RPG's is the only reality to us latecomers... and it structures our thought about the RPG's quite heavily.

[Mithalwen]

The other thing I meant to say was that when a game gets very strung out it makes it harder both because you have to remind yourself of what is going on and you feel your post has to be amazingly good becasue it has been so long since your last one. I am not saying that many poor posts are preferable but that maintaining momentum perhaps makes it easier to post to a reasonable standard since you don't have to spend so much time working out who is doing what.

[Durelin]

I really don't like the comparison with Werewolf. It really isn't roleplaying because...people don't really take on roles. They have secret game roles, that's it. Sometimes they have for fun roles, but it's not like people 'play in character'...when people have attempted to, other players get upset. If I use the Col Mustard playing piece in Clue, I move around the board as Col Mustard, but I do not pretend to be Col Mustard or make decisions as Col Mustard. It's a completely different mindset, and a completely different culture. In my experience it's a lot more about egos than RPing ever is (and I know well that egos get involved in RP).

My problem with saying, let's enforce timelines/posting requirements strictly (or fairly strictly) and change some language (game owner to game leader, etc)...is that to me that doesn't seem to be fixing anything. Or really changing anything. Maybe nothing needs to be changed, I don't know. But the timelines were enforced to varying degrees in the past. I don't think enforcing that was successful. If people don't post, they don't post. Saying 'I am moving the plot ahead tomorrow, if you want to post you have until then' doesn't make people who aren't interested/don't care post. And if it does it makes people post once or so before they disappear again, just because you brought them back on some sort of guilt trip. But apparently they're still not interested enough to post consistently. Timelines are going to drive some people away, as are posting requirements. As I said in my first post, you're not going to please everybody, no matter what you do. But I don't see the benefit of enforcing timelines and posting requirements.

The other big thing seems to be that we make the games 'smaller scale' or that they have one plotline, or a simpler plotline, or something of that nature. So that they're not too clunky and don't get stuck. That we should change the style of the games. But is that a rule to decide ahead of time? Or should we let people decide for themselves the style of game they want to play? I'm not advocating epic, clunky games. I'm much more interested in more freeform games, games that are less clunky (but do not necessarily have one plot line at all). But regardless of what sort of game you're interested in, or what you think might work...I don't think we want to limit things even more. The current RP structure allows for a variety of games. I think we should open it up to allow more freedom, not limit to a certain style of game.

And there's concern about 'new people'...I think it's better to help new members get involved (which will also help them understand how to RP here) than to set up rules and procedures that keep them from getting fully involved right away. Some sites use mentoring systems. 'Veteran' RPers on the site help new people figure out the rules and get involved in RPs, give them advice. They're not authority figures, but they know their way around. Because frankly it's not just about whether or not they *write well*, which to a great degree is subjective...it's also just about figuring out how RPing works on a single forum. Every RP on a forum/RP forum has a different style, a different feel. Different norms and expectations.

And I guess part of what I feel is that we need to change our expectations a bit here on BD. They have changed a bit over time. A good bit. Early on there was a wide variety of people, different kinds of writers, different ages. Then as things consolidated a bit, the posts started getting longer and longer, and as others have noted, the RPs started getting more and more 'complex', like they were trying to outdo one another... As Mithalwen has said people's egos got in the way a bit. As they always do. But writing here was like a huge project. Every post had to be a book. There are sites out there that require a certain amount of words for every post, some upwards of 500 and more words. They think that makes them elite. I think a bit of that mentality got into things here. There are other mentalities, but, that was one of them.

I guess part of what I've been trying to say is that RPing here on BD is only one style of forum RPing. The games on here that are specific plots a group of people play through with one-time run characters (like mini table-top RPs, but the game owner is not quite like a DM) is only one style. And it may be a style we want to stick with. It probably is, for the most part. But I don't see what harm there can be in bringing in some elements from other styles of forum RPing, particularly those styles that seem to be really quite popular. Most RP forums are open world -- they are of course forums entirely dedicated to RP, though. Of course BD is not, so it is going to be different. But it seems to me that most people who RP on a form these days are used to more freedom, less structure. If that makes sense? And of course that doesn't necessarily mean anything, because we're not necessarily going to attract people who RP on forums/have RPed on forums before. We may only or mostly attract Tolkien fans who then get interested in RPing because of the RP section here. And then we just have to make it welcoming for them.

But if we're just talking about retaining players/getting back old ones, which has been mentioned, than this discussion is a bit different. It does seem like those players still around/lurking don't want to change much so I should probably shuddup nao.

omg, this was supposed to be a quick post. ><