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#1 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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Somewhere (in a letter I believe) I think Tolkien noted that 'hobgoblin' should probably refer to smaller kinds! but he had already published this in any case, to explain the use of this word in The Hobbit, which I think only occurs once. Thus some are equating hobgoblin or 'large goblin' with Saruman's 'larger' goblin soldiers. And the statement (currently on Wikipedia): 'Tolkien then renamed them [Hobgoblins] as Uruks or Uruk-hai in an attempt to correct his mistake' is someone's opinion, the 'mistake' referring to Tolkien's statement in a letter. To my mind this really needs no correcting in any case, despite any external factors. If 'Hobgoblin' refers to larger kinds within the context of Middle-earth then so be it (in my opinion). Note again that, despite this explanatory note appearing in The Hobbit it was added to a later edition, so JRRT had not published 'hobgoblin' for 'large goblin' until after he had published a tale in which the Uruk-hai appear. Tolkien would hardly rename Hobgoblins Uruk-hai to correct a 'mistake' he had yet to make. Quote:
Even though a Hobbit (a kuduk) is a halfling (banakil)! It's nicely confusing ![]() Last edited by Galin; 02-08-2011 at 02:00 PM. |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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I usually interpret the "hai" suffix as being something along the lines of "great", "fierce", or "improved". After all we do have at least one other name with the same suffix, Olog-Hai (the souped up, can't be turned to stone as long as the power is there, trolls Sauron makes use of). Off the top of my head I can;t think of a case where "Olog" is used on it's own for a non-souped up troll (then again once you get past the Hobbit, where these terms haven't been used yet, you don't meet a lot of non-souped up trolls) but presumably that is what they are called. The Orcs also call the Drunedain "Oghor-Hai" despite the fact they are smaller than most men, but given how good the Drunedain are at killing Orcs this could be "hai" being used in the context of "fierce". Presumably, in Black speech, Wargs are likely referred to as "(whatever the Black Speech word for "wolf" is)"-"Hai" as well. Last edited by Alfirin; 02-08-2011 at 04:17 PM. |
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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As for Hobgoblin I just think Tolkien chose an existing 'goblin word' from the Primary World and used it -- however 'wrongly' he thought he had applied it, after publication. Plus I don't know (I'm not a trained linguist myself) how accurate it is to say 'hob-' means 'hole' based on hobbit.
Holbytla means 'Hole-builder', and hobbit is a theoretical worn-down form of this word. Someone on line (elsewhere) posted that this type of assimilation (l becoming b, as it appears has occured at least) is common enough in languages, but I haven't really had time to look into this myself. Anyway as far as -hai goes we now know it means 'folk' due to Words, Phrases, and Passages. So Uruk-hai means 'orc-folk' -- but since uruk 'orc' became distinguished from snaga it means 'great-soldier orc-folk' |
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#4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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#5 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
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Very nice one skip!
![]() Alfirin, no disagreement from me re orcs and goblins. 'Hob' appears in all sorts of folklore monster-type names etc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hob_(folklore) (also see disambiguation page), and 'hobbledehoy' http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-hob1.htm for an ungraceful man, also 'Old Hob' referring to the devil. I'm surprised JRRT never analysed the philology, maybe he did!
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
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#6 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#7 |
Sage & Onions
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Britain
Posts: 894
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Hi Nerwen,
I'm rather hoping that you're right, it would be terrible to think that PJ was one-up on the Downer concensus regarding orc-spawning canonicity ![]()
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Rumil of Coedhirion |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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Good catch Nerwen!
I would also add that The Drúedain belongs to the very late period of Tolkien's writing, and a note to that text reads... Quote:
Another note from the 1960s reads... 'The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan.' UT, The Palantiri, endnote 7 Hmm. Last edited by Galin; 02-08-2011 at 10:45 PM. |
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#9 | ||
Wisest of the Noldor
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#10 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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Nerwen, please tell me that's not really there!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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