Physiques

[skytree]

Just thinking of some old English Kings, you had kings like Edward Longshanks or Richard the Lionhearted who were tall, athletically built like Aragorn but you also had kings like Edward the IV, or Alexander III of Russia who had huge physiques and were very robust and know for their immense strength.

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I really don't think of Beorn, because it was the Hobbit and I think his nature will always be somewhat of a mystery even though Tolkien states he is a man. Helm, is really the only mention but even that is a brief narrative.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

I'd agree that Tolkienien heroes tend to be "ectomorph" types... but you're not talking about the general picture, you're talking about "somewhere in the history of Middle-earth". We've supplied you with a couple of examples already, and you disallowed them using what I'd call special pleading ("Hobbit" characters don't count, briefly-appearing characters sort-of don't count...) Um... what does count?

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd agree that Tolkienien heroes tend to be "ectomorph" types... but you're not talking about the general picture, you're talking about "somewhere in the history of Middle-earth". We've supplied you with a couple of examples already, and you disallowed them using what I'd call special pleading ("Hobbit" characters don't count, briefly-appearing characters sort-of don't count...) Um... what does count?

If you look at a literal description of Beorn, you could extrapolate that he was Goliath proportions, maybe 10-12 feet tall and it always seem he is dismissed because the Hobbit was meant to be a kids tale and Tolkien tried to fold it into the greater setting he created for Lord of the Rings.

Something more substantial for example than a paragraph which is basically all we hear about Helm. I've only scratched the surface on reading the Unfinished Tales or History of Middle Earth, that is why I am posting. If Helm is it, it seems odd that he was the only great warrior that had a robust physique.

[Inziladun]

The Men we see in the stories are mostly of Númenórean descent, or their distant relatives the Rohirrim. For the Númenóreans, perhaps the fact that it is said they had become the most like Elves of any Men had something to do with their tall, slim stature. The fact that Forlong was notable as "the Fat", seems to speak for the idea that obesity was a rarity for Gondor. Also, there could well be (and probably were) fighters in many of the great battles that were larger in girth than average. Since we as readers only see a tiny number of characters close-up though, the odds don't necessarily favour someone of "plus size" getting any notice.
We are told of some other races of Men that have a tendency to be smaller and stouter, though.

They are strong....countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like Dwarves, wielding great axes.

ROTK The Siege of Gondor

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by skytree

If you look at a literal description of Beorn, you could extrapolate that he was Goliath proportions, maybe 10-12 feet tall and it always seem he is dismissed because the Hobbit was meant to be a kids tale and Tolkien tried to fold it into the greater setting he created for Lord of the Rings.

Well, "always" there is pretty vague, skytree. Who is doing this dismissing?

Originally Posted by skytree

Something more substantial for example than a paragraph which is basically all we hear about Helm.

But that is enough to establish his existance, surely? I mean, your initial statement was:

Originally Posted by skytree

...it seems there were no plus size or large physique people in Middle Earth. Aragorn and Boromir were large, powerful men but neither were described as any more than what could be perceived as athletically built. Elf or Man, no one seemed to be described as massive, enormous, huge...

(my bolding)

Originally Posted by skytree

I've only scratched the surface on reading the Unfinished Tales or History of Middle Earth, that is why I am posting. If Helm is it, it seems odd that he was the only great warrior that had a robust physique.

Well, what about the "mighty" Erkenbrand? Or is he again disqualified as being only a minor character?

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, "always" there is pretty vague, skytree. Who is doing this dismissing?

Plenty on this forum for example. If you take the description on face value, that Bilbo was able to walk beneath a tunic that came down to Beorn's knees without ducking, that would put Beorn somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 feet tall or larger than a Troll. Certainly there are no other Men in his fiction that are giant but he states in a letter that he is human. It makes Beorn an anomaly like Tom Bombadil but many on this forum have argued its just the product of being a character in the Hobbit, that was meant to be a kids tale. Sort of like Bert, Tom, and Bill's portrayal as Trolls or the giants in the misty mountains.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But that is enough to establish his existance, surely? I mean, your initial statement was:
(my bolding)

Are there others in his other writings? I am generally curious on the subject and haven't read any of the ancillary works.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, what about the "mighty" Erkenbrand? Or is he again disqualified as being only a minor character?

Never really thought about that but I guess there is a reference that he has Helm-like qualities.

[Galadriel55]

Skytree, if you're going to look only on "major" characters, you're not going to find much. Major characters are generally "normal" people that do extraordinary things. If Sam was a giant, it would be no surprise that orcs were afraid of him in the tower of Cirith Ungol. But he wasn't - and that made his deed something remarkable.

If you are looking for characters with a large body-build, you have to consider the "minor" characters too.

[skytree]

I understand that from a dramatic standpoint that has to hold true, that is why I was asking about the History of Middle Earth, which I haven't read yet.

I happen to be of Dutch descent from the area of Friesland. I think there is a genetic predisposition to be large in my ancestry. My grandfather was 6'8", my father 6'6", and I am 6'6" with the shortest of my siblings being a a sister of 5'11". I would characterize us as being "large boned" and not just tall. I could stand to be in better shape but I normally range 260-275 lbs.

In fact in the Friesan history we had a pirate Pier Gerloff Donia, who led a William Wallace style revolt against the Hapsburgs and from his armor is estimated to have been around 7' and 430 lbs. His greatsword was 7' and weighed 14.5 lbs. Obviously he was naturally large as 1500 was long before weight training.

I guess Tolkien's idea or image of a powerful warrior was tall and athletic like Elendil.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skytree

It just seems all of Tolkien's powerful warriors, whether it Turin or Aragorn are tall, graceful, and athletic. Imposing but with some Elf like quality. Surely, somewhere in the history of middle earth, there has to be a warrior paramount that was a robust, brutish figure.

Húrin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Húrin.

Hurin was the mightiest man, but not the tallest. In COH it says that he was actually a bit shorter than most men of his kind.

Huor his brother was tall, the tallest of all the Edain,save his own son Tuor only...~COH, The Childhood of Turin

I think the fact that people need to move a lot in ME prevents them from gaining too much fat. (Hobbits are a different matter.)

And talking about hobbits - Bullroarer Took, Pippin, and Merry are taller than the "standart".

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And talking about hobbits - Bullroarer Took, Pippin, and Merry are taller than the "standart".

Merry and Pippin need asterisks next to their names, much like modern baseball players who have used human growth hormones or similar enhancing drugs. Ent droughts, you know...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Merry and Pippin need asterisks next to their names, much like modern baseball players who have used human growth hormones or similar enhancing drugs. Ent droughts, you know...

But Bulroarer Took still counts. He didn't drink no Ent-draughts! Beer's good enough for him!

[Morthoron]

Let's not forget Isengrim the Dainty and Loadholt the Squat.