What do you wish Tolkien....

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

While Tolkien does note that Glorfindel's return must have been for strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, I think his great fame would naturally be an inspiration. And as for wisdom, while not Olorin himself obviously, it was said Glorfindel became a friend and follower of Olorin in Valinor, and...

'for long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (...) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his sacrifice.' JRRT, Glorfindel II

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

I rather like Tolkien's first 'answer' to this question from Glorfindel I (even though he seems to have superseded it in Glorfindel II): Laurefindel came with Gandalf as a companion (and again, he was a friend and follower of Olorin).

Finrod had good enough reasons to stay in Aman; but more generally, the late essays raise issues that include: Glorfindel being a reluctant rebel in the first place, his sacrifice, the matter of reincarnation in Aman concerning the Exiles... and again generally speaking, we can see Tolkien working out Glorfindel's special circumstances.

Of course externally Tolkien had two Elves named Glorfindel in his legendarium (not necessarily a problem in itself), though only one was known to the general public in any case; and if they were to be considered the same being, then it was a given that Glorfindel of Gondolin had returned to Middle-earth at some point (unless JRRT was willing to change the circumstances of Glorfindel's death, which I doubt).

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

Tolkien wrote a later essay concerning the word ros for example (which, not unexpectedly, included details beyond specific linguistic concerns)... then he noted that most of it failed because of an already published detail however, the word andros being Sindarin. For another instance, JRRT wrote two variant late descriptions of Celebrimbor after he had published (second edition) that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean -- but did Tolkien remember this when he wrote these descriptions? and if he forgot but remembered later, did he necessarily need to go back and write 'this fails' on either text, since the public was unaware of them?

Christopher Tolkien thinks his father had forgotten about this detail and (in his opinion) JRRT surely would have felt bound to Celebrimbor the Feanorean.

I tend to agree, but this matter is difficult. To state the obvious: we know what already published text Tolkien was willing to change when he changed it for the Second Edition. What was he willing to change later? who knows? for example, why not simply change the appendices and note ros really was a Beorian word rather than Sindarin (as in his late essay)? But, it would appear that his 'most of this fails' should mean that he was not willing to alter this.

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

[Findegil]

About the needed change to take 'ros'as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

Why did the Istari Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf arrive so late, if the other two came already in 1600 Second Age:
It seems that from the begining of the plan to send them, they were not supposed to act as powerful group. Therefor they arived alone or as couples. And it could be that after the two blue wizards had arrived the plan was overturned by the rapid developments that occured in Middleearth, by which Saruon was humilated and pushed back. I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the needed change to take 'ros' as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

I'm no linguist but a borrowing from Beorian seems simple enough to me -- Tolkien arguably needed to solve his problem in an archaic context, or let's say, well before Cair Andros was named in Sindarin.

The Grey-elven speech of Imladris shows Quenya influence -- for example miruvor from Quenya (by way of Valarin). And in a late text Tolkien mused about making an Elvish word, long held (externally) to be Elvish in derivation, a borrowing from a Mannish tongue -- going from memory I think it was atan actually (possibly from Of Dwarves And Men if I recall correctly), but in any case I'm fairly confident the example exists.


I posted this idea elsewhere, and so far anyway, no bites as to why it would be problematic, or notably so. In other words: -ros in Elros and Cair Andros is 'Sindarin' as much as miruvor and adan are (again, if I remember the example atan correctly) -- and Tolkien has perhaps solved his problem -- ros 'red-brown' and ros 'foam' do not both hail originally from an Eldarin context, despite that they both ended up in the Eldarin tongues.

Then again, I'm not wholly sure there is that great a problem here with the homophones being so different in meaning and yet being Elvish, despite that Tolkien obviously wanted to correct this at one point.


Again maybe this only seems to work to me because -- as is no doubt true -- JRRT knew vastly (and I mean vastly) much more about languages than I do. But I still wonder why this idea would not have solved both the problem that inspired the essay, and the subsequent problem of published andros that made Tolkien discard most of it.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

Great stuff, Galin as usual. I'm inclined to believe that Tolkien would have preferred to keep certain facets of his writing consistent and not confuse his readers by changing origins and other major details of history. That he forgot what he had written as he got old is very likely, and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!

Originally Posted by Findegil

I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

(...) and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!

Well put! I should add that to my usual rant on Tolkien-published text being of higher (Valinorean?) stature than other types!

But I may or may not credit you when I steal it though

[Findegil]

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

Posted by Cirdan:

??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?

Yes, that is exacly what I meaned. Look at the longterm outcome of the involvement of the Numenoreans: 1 Generation later they came not as helper but as masters and conquers to the men of Middle-Earth. They became proud and greedy. And started soon (as the Valar recone time) to rebel against the authority of the Valar. It ended all in the foul idea of Ar-Pharazon, that he could control Sauron and in Saurons subsuquent coruption of almost all Numenoreans.

Most probably the Valar had some beter plan how to counterakt against Sauron in the Second Age. Maybe that did not include a rescue for the lingering Elves in Middle-Earth, that had sined again by making and keeping the Rings of Power and had anyway a way of escape into the west.
But this is all speculation and the recorded history of Middle-Earth went otherwise.

Respectfuly
Findegil