Of powers outside our realism?

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Very possibly, good (or bad) Formendacil. Still, I tend to see the answers to each of the questions as readily available, if the time is taken. Perhaps my apprehension of these is something I take for granted because they appear obvious enough to me and I feel I could answer them all fairly thoroughly in a direct sense, not necessarily as you say, with a view to cataloging for (perhaps) a clinical dissection With a view to RPG, but rather as they appear to work in the writing. But your response was gracious, and thank you.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Azrakhor Akallabeth

Very possibly, good (or bad) Formendacil. Still, I tend to see the answers to each of the questions as readily available, if the time is taken. Perhaps my apprehension of these is something I take for granted because they appear obvious enough to me and I feel I could answer them all fairly thoroughly in a direct sense, not necessarily as you say, with a view to cataloging for (perhaps) a clinical dissection With a view to RPG, but rather as they appear to work in the writing. But your response was gracious, and thank you.

The thing is, though.... I don't think the answers are readily available in every case; and if you base your opinion about the general lack of response to Paradus's questions on their ready answerability, then if I were successful in demonstrating that the answers AREN'T readily available, your conclusion about the lack of response would no longer be supported.

Take, for example, Paradus's last few questions:

Originally Posted by Paradus

Does the power of Illuvatar have any limits?

What of the power of song and music?

Finally what powers did the great Morgoth have at his disposal?

I would contend that these questions have no ready answers, each in their own particular way, and that consequently an interesting discussion could be founded on each of them (and, admittedly, may already have been done in the vaults of time somewhere on this or another forum. In that case, Paradus may be faulted for not finding those discussions and contributing to those conversations... but I do not think he would find certain answers).

Firstly, "does the power of Ilúvatar have any limits?" This is no simple question, but ties in directly to the unanswered philosophical questions about the nature of God. Even if you assume that Ilúvatar has the same philosophical properties as the Christian God, you have to bear in mind that there is no complete agreement as to whether the Christian God has the qualities of omni-benevolence, omnipotence, and omniscience given in philosophy to the supreme being. Quite apart from the Problem of Evil on a technical level, you also have the Problem of apparent Evil in acts attributed to God in revelation--and, for that matter, you have the Problem of apparent Evil in the acts attributed to Eru in Tolkien's "revelation". Never mind the fact that the identification of Eru with the Christian God is disputed by some rather weighty minds on this forum in the first place.

And even if Ilúvatar's power does not inherently have limits, is it possible that He limits them Himself in giving governance of the world to the Valar and giving free will to Men (and Elves, Dwarves, etc)?

Regarding the second question, about the power of music in Middle-earth, there are admittedly a book-full of essays about music (Music in Middle-earth, edited by our very own Esty) which could be consulted, but after you go through the book, I would say (mind you, only having read through a third to half the essays) that you would left with a strong sense of "okay, now I know pretty much everything Tolkien said... but I still have to draw my own conclusions." It's one thing to survey every instance that links power and music in the corpus of Middle-earth texts; it's quite another to conclude solidly what the exact parameters of power might be.

Thirdly, "what powers did the great Morgoth have at his disposal." Much like the question of music, one could survey all the instances of Morgoth exercising his might in Tolkien's work, and still not know whether he could do more or not--though one might be able to block off certain directions (for example, we know that Morgoth could not create, only twist other's creations... at least in his later stages). However, the question is complicated by other things: Paradus says "Morgoth" so I assume that he means Morgoth-enemy-of-the-Eldar-in-Angband-during-the-First-Age, which is a different matter than Melkor-as-he-first-entered-Arda. What's more, Paradus adds the phrase "at his disposal." Well, we know that Morgoth had the power to change his form--when he took up a form at all... but this power was dispersed throughout the matter of Arda by the time he last took a shape as he escaped the clutches of the Valar... so this "power" that he legitimately possessed was no longer "at his disposal." If this was true of this power, would it be true of others? For example, if we assume that Morgoth "created" the orks and trolls before Utumno was destroyed and he was taken to Valinor, could he have done a similar act when he returned? This depends if all he did was breed Elves (or Men) for their most abominable traits... or did he actively use his subcreative power to mould them into different forms?

Again... it is not answerable, so unless "it is not answerable" is a legitimate "answer to each of the questions [that is] readily available, if the time is taken," then I have to conclude that the answers to these questions are NOT all readily available.



*cough* Okay, that gets the logical argument out my system, but quite beyond refuting your point logically, Azrakhor, there is a "moral" point I am trying to make--and I mean "moral" in the sense of "this is what ought to be done on the Downs." Even though I rather strongly disagree with Paradus's terminology, and even if I actually incline to your position that, by and large, these discussions already exist on the forum and can be found if one digs around... the purpose of a discussion forum is to discuss. While it is a minor fault to not dig up a pre-existing thread and add to what is there, rather than starting a new (possibly superfluous thread), it is also true that there are over a decade of discussions buried in the pages of this forum, and even the relatively long-term users have not read them all... and even if we have, we cannot be expected to find them.

In other words, even if Paradus's questions were readily answerable, it would still be within the scope of this forum to ask them. Not everyone on this globally-used site has access to all twelve volumes of the History of Middle-earth, even *if* they've all read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, which they have not. Many of the best threads come out of topics that have been discussed many times--not because the topic is new, but because the input into the topic is. One of the treasures of the Barrow-downs is wealth of knowledge of its many members, and one of the whole points of the discussion forum is to allow that knowledge to be imparted and shared.

Mind you... I have a philosophy degree, so I've been conditioned to see the reasking of old questions, and the full reconsideration of ideas from start to finish--even when the conclusion is no different--as a good thing in itself.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

There is no mistaking your formidable intellect but you are missing some of the invisible qualities of understanding, within your understanding. Let's just say that to explain MY understanding of why these are EASILY available and READILY answerable would require ANOTHER 60 books Beyond Tolkien's own.

I contend that your contention is probably true for YOU. Therefore I do not argue the point. But I said what I said, and not without knowledge. Simply saying so doesn't make it true, so if you desire extensive clarification I shall require a publisher and an advance fee for my time. In other words, it's too much work to bring you up to speed with my own knowledge, sir. But thank you for your gracious response.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

And for my next trick-



...


And thank you for your gracious response.