If you HAD to be an Elf...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Is there a recipe given somewhere? I kind of assumed they use acorn flour.

There is no mention of a recipe, but other things point at farming in Elvish settlements. Elrond had all kinds of food at his feast. Where did he get it from? I doubt that anyone shipped it up Greyflood.

I mentioned it in this thread, around post #40...

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There is no mention of a recipe, but other things point at farming in Elvish settlements. Elrond had all kinds of food at his feast. Where did he get it from? I doubt that anyone shipped it up Greyflood.

I mentioned it in this thread, around post #40...

I recall Elrond's feast as being ample, varied an excellent, but was there mention of food that couldn't be harvested from the wild?

To this point in the mundane world, there might be three basic styles of human civilization: hunter gatherer, agricultural empire and industrialized democracy (ignoring for the moment various failed autocratic industrialized societies such as the fascists and communists).

Variations on these themes can be found in Middle Earth. Tolkien idealized agricultural civilization. The Shire and Pelennor Fields represent an idealized agrarian society where life was pleasant and the governments far less oppressive than the real world historical record would suggest.

The Elves, and wild men (Woses and Lossoth) seem closer to a hunter gatherer pattern. The nuts and bolts of these cultures and economies aren't thoroughly explored. I'm assuming the wild men are close to the eskimo and pre farming real world patterns. Yet, that isn't Tolkien's strength or focus. He was out to create myth rather than doing hard science fiction exploration of how the cultures and economics of his varied cultures worked. At any rate, ignoring the unspecified, Tolkien romanticized the Agricultural Age quite a bit, and the Hunter Gatherers hardly less.

He was less thrilled with the Industrial Age. He portrayed societies that embraced machinery and fire as vile. I can hardly blame him. There were many social ills in the industrialized culture of his youth. I look at our current problems with the depletion of oil and global warming and am inclined to agree with Treebeard. Ha room rah! Let us tear down some walls, and flood some basements.

But if Tolkien wasn't into the nuts and bolts of detailed economic systems, what can a role player who wants to spend time in his world do if he wants to know his character's background so one can fill in her skills and motivations?

The local tradition in playing elves is to center their culture on nature and beauty as opposed to humans that might be centered on economics and justice. In one game world, an elf would study esthetics rather than law. One does the beautiful thing rather than enforce the law.

I won't say that every single elf ought to be running through the woods gathering acorns and shooting deer. Elven craftsmanship is superb. I can easily see, if someone has a love of a given craft, developing and practicing that craft to the exclusion of much else. I do see Goldie's past as being relatively normal for a youngster. She spent a good deal of time wandering the woods hunting and gathering, while still practicing her art. She brings her lute with her into the woods, though she would have better opportunities to learn music in the winter months when she settles into the Grey Havens or Rivendell. I also see an elven shipwright, cook, house builder or clothing maker being considered no less an artist than the singer or dancer. An elven artisan is more likely to be striving for beauty than for profit. They have the time and the culture to push them to create the extraordinary.

I also see many of these creations as being in some sense 'magical.' The cloak might make one hard to see, the trail bread will be flavorful, nutritious an keep indefinitely. The boat will be easy to navigate even in dire waters. The song might indeed cause flowers to bloom and birds to sing, or it might call the protection of Elbereth down upon the land. Still, it will be subtle. A skeptic who doesn't believe in magic, or isn't trained to recognize it when he sees it, will have no difficulty convincing himself that nothing magical is taking place.

Sorry to be rambling. Anyway, all of this makes me lean away from elves doing a great deal of farming or herding. Humans and Hobbits, sure, each plot of land is managed to maximize the production of one particular plant or animal. Elves might be more likely to harvest from nature. I can't prove it. I won't insist that everyone's conception of elven kind ought to echo mine. I won't say that there aren't crafts people that also tend gardens. Still, the above covers how I perceive Goldie's background. I'm a role player, rather than a Tolkien academic, so I might look at things a bit differently. I'm out to create a character who comes from a different background, who sees things from a different perspective, who might make a few unusual decisions.

[Galadriel55]

Well as you said, Elves did not spend most of their time and effort farming, but I think that some of it *at least* was done. There's only that much food you can get from the forest.

Maybe they didn't necessarily have farms as we know them, but rather gardens, with maybe some vegetabes here and there...

And you're absolutely right about them making the most out of a small amount of food. But none the less I imagine Elrond's feast to be lavish. However, it hapened just after harvest time, so he probably has lots of food in his stores.

Plus, Elrond had to suply 4 extra hobbits with food for, what was it? - a month? That is A LOT of food! (well, they're starved hobbits. What else would you expect of them? )

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Plus, Elrond had to suply 4 extra hobbits with food for, what was it? - a month? That is A LOT of food! (well, they're starved hobbits. What else would you expect of them? )

You also have to remember that Elrond and Gandalf were both present, each wearing one of The Three. This makes it plausible that they could feed four extra hobbits.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by blantyr

You also have to remember that Elrond and Gandalf were both present, each wearing one of The Three. This makes it plausible that they could feed four extra hobbits.

Mmn, well, there's the rub, isn't it? It seems to me this concept only really works if you're prepared to use "it's magic" as an all-purpose hand-wave.

Now, I agree Tolkien himself clearly wasn't a bit interested in Elven economics, food-production, etc. That was never the point. However when attempting to fill in the gaps, as one often is in a fan-fiction or role-playing setting, my own feeling is that it's usually better to err somewhat on the side of practicality and plausibility. Still more so when you're taking part in a general discussion.

I say "usually", mind– I certainly wouldn't want to go to the other extreme of ignoring the fantasy aspect completely, and insisting on a level and detail of realism that would be out of place in an historical novel– which I've seen people do.

So, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I must say I personally have great trouble seeing, say, Rivendell as a society sustained purely on hunting and gathering. It seems so different from any real-world equivalent that frankly it never even occurred to me that it was meant to work that way.

[Anguirel]

ahem, as far as the general question goes, er, ah...

Be he friend or foe, whether Balrog of Morgoth, or Elf, or child of Men, or anything living or dead of Arda, neither might of the Valar nor any power of wizardry shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Feanor's sons, if he should take a Silmaril and keep it!

[Nerwen]

Ang, are you acquainted with Urwen at all?

Just wondered.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mmn, well, there's the rub, isn't it? It seems to me this concept only really works if you're prepared to use "it's magic" as an all-purpose hand-wave.

Now, I agree Tolkien himself clearly wasn't a bit interested in Elven economics, food-production, etc. That was never the point. However when attempting to fill in the gaps, as one often is in a fan-fiction or role-playing setting, my own feeling is that it's usually better to err somewhat on the side of practicality and plausibility. Still more so when you're taking part in a general discussion.

I say "usually", mind– I certainly wouldn't want to go to the other extreme of ignoring the fantasy aspect completely, and insisting on a level and detail of realism that would be out of place in an historical novel– which I've seen people do.

So, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but I must say I personally have great trouble seeing, say, Rivendell as a society sustained purely on hunting and gathering. It seems so different from any real-world equivalent that frankly it never even occurred to me that it was meant to work that way.

I don't see Tolkien's elven culture as so well defined that one person's interpretation should be held to over ride another's. I have problems seeing elves harnessing their horses for a plow, putting up fences, or killing for meat an animal that they have known. I'm not one to tell other players how to run their character, but Goldie is a hunter gatherer.

Whether a hunter gatherer society can be maintained would be a question of population density. How many elves per square mile? How big is the biggest 'city'? Is Rivendell an oversized inn, or a city? For a hunter gatherer pattern to work, I'd expect widely spread villages or mansions, and perhaps migratory patterns as small groups move from one harvest point to another, perhaps with stops in between at their winter quarters to stow things away.

I am also more ready than most to accept the magic. The gap between elven craftsmanship and other race's might be benchmarked by the difference between cram and lembas. This difference is in part the Art. There is an place in elven culture for the creation and manifestation of beauty. Hobbits might improve their crop yield using plows and manure. The elves might sing to Yavanna. I'm ready to think that the Elven technique might be superior. The strength of the magic of Middle Earth should not be measured only through the frequency, size and heat level of the fireballs. Elven magic might not be suitable for dominion and conquest, but that doesn't mean it isn't present and powerful.

Still, my interpretation seems uncommon here. I'm involved in an off line table top Middle Earth game played with reasonably hard firmly defined magic rules. There, my objective is to use the magic rules without anyone else much noticing. The magic is supposed to be subtle to invisible. Sure, the elf is singing, but she's always singing.

In the Barrow Downs game forum, I'm kind of leaning the same way. In my head there might be a little magic going on, but not so anyone would notice. The Barrow Downs version of Goldie is also too young to be doing a heck of a lot with magic.

Still, she looks at the world through a hunter gather's eyes. She is part of nature, a wander, who does not fence in a plot of land to subjugate it to her will. She understands that such is the way of halfling and human. She isn't going to condemn them for following their nature. Still, to her eye, there would be more beauty in a woods than a farm.

This isn't to say that every elf should be played that way. I can also see an argument that there are elven cities, centers of population that are too large for its inhabitants to reasonably go out and catch supper every night. Such places require some sort of food infrastructure. Gardens might easily be a part of it.

[Folwren]

I think I would like to be a woodelf from Mirkwood. I don't know much about elves, and for me, it would be a 'HAVE to', as they're not my favorite race from ME.

I rather like the style of living the Mirkwood elves seem to have described in The Hobbit. Sounds like it is fairly fun, but also somewhat serious, an just near enough to danger not to be boring.

-- Folwren