Were Dwarves attracted to Elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galin · 05-04-2011, 07:04 AM

Well, I think it's questionable that such a line would have survived as part of the Red Book, post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth.

Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.

But if so, that still doesn't mean Tolkien would have retained this line from The Book of Lost Tales.

Inziladun · 05-04-2011, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful.

In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.

Morthoron · 05-04-2011, 07:57 AM

I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.

blantyr · 05-04-2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face.

Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?

Galadriel · 05-04-2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blantyr

Is there any record of elven ladies returning the infatuation?

Not that I've heard of, but the thought could be a little disturbing...

Galin · 05-04-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the canon works, I find Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel to be very singular. I think it's noteworthy that he alone in the history of the Dwarves (as far as we are told) is allowed to go to the Undying Lands, and it's intimated that it was his love for Galadriel that accomplished that. That love, moreover, seems to have had as much to do with her speaking Khuzdul names in Gimli's hearing as much as her physical beauty.

We don't see the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost falling for Melain. And even 'Lúthien returned' (aka Arwen) couldn't elicit in Gimli the reaction he had to Galadriel.

I would agree it wasn't Galadriel's beauty alone, but still Gimli found her very fair, which to my mind speaks to this much: to others, Dwarven women looked very much like Dwarven men (including beards), and Gimli finding Galadriel so fair indicates (to me) that Dwarves, again at least some, can find other females -- outside of female dwarves -- attractive.

Gimli's infatuation, as a whole, for Galadriel might be a bit of a different consideration than looking at the more specific 'physical attraction' possibility.

Galadriel55 · 05-04-2011, 03:31 PM

I don't think Gimi's love for Galadriel was one of physical attraction. It's more like... being fascinated over a wiser and greater friend... something of that sort, I just can't get it out right. It's more of reverence than love in a way.

Possibly the dwarves needed some women - any women - because a lack of their own kind? I recall that they had very few females.

I haven't read HOME II, so I don't really know what's going on when the line was said...

Pitchwife · 05-04-2011, 04:01 PM

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

Galadriel · 05-05-2011, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

I had a hunch that that was the case. Well, it's clear now. A little...

Galin · 05-05-2011, 06:06 AM

Well explained Pitchwife.

And again (for clarity in the thread), I'm not suggesting Gimli's infatuation was only due to Galadriel's great physical beauty, but that surely he found her physically 'attractive' as well -- and considering what I would characterize as a notable difference (from a Mannish perspective) between dwarf-women, who looked like dwarf-men to Men's eyes, and the beauty of Galadriel, I still would find it odd that Gimli only found Galadriel fair because of other factors...

... and somewhat odd if only Gimli could find an Elven woman fair. But that rather specific point doesn't, in any event, mean that the Dwarves of Moria were swooning everytime they spied an Elven woman in Eregion!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 05-05-2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether.

Perfectly explained, Pitcher.

The thought I had was of the dwarfs in Norse mythology, who would frequently lust after goddesses and whatnot, irrespective of stature. *paging Mithalwen to make some jape about 'size' and the degree to which it matters

Mithalwen · 05-05-2011, 11:50 AM

But I was going to make some jest -I mean a seriously scholarly point - about beards. Are you trying to get me banned? Not that I have any idea to what you mean

05-04-2011, 07:57 AM	#3
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	I think it has to do with all that Elf butt staring them in the face. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

05-04-2011, 03:31 PM	#7
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	I don't think Gimi's love for Galadriel was one of physical attraction. It's more like... being fascinated over a wiser and greater friend... something of that sort, I just can't get it out right. It's more of reverence than love in a way. Possibly the dwarves needed some women - any women - because a lack of their own kind? I recall that they had very few females. I haven't read HOME II, so I don't really know what's going on when the line was said... __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-04-2011, 04:01 PM	#8
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	What was going on in HoME II (aka Book of Lost Tales) is that our Prof at that time still thought of the Dwarves as a faithless and devious, if not downright evil race that had 'no spirit indwelling' and wasn't above smithing even for Morgoth if the price was right - so why not make them lecherous and lust after elf-maidens too? The whole character of Gimli and his chivalric love for Galadriel would have been inconceivable in this context and are another matter altogether. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

05-05-2011, 11:50 AM	#12
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	But I was going to make some jest -I mean a seriously scholarly point - about beards. Are you trying to get me banned? Not that I have any idea to what you mean __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-04-2011, 07:04 AM	#1
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Well, I think it's questionable that such a line would have survived as part of the Red Book, post-Lord of the Rings Middle-earth. Generally speaking, neither the Dwarves of The Book of Lost Tales, nor 'Tinwelint' (Thingol) remained the same in much later conceptions, yet that said, I think we can safely say Gimli thought Galadriel very fair in any case, implying that Dwarves (or at least some) could find Elves beautiful. But if so, that still doesn't mean Tolkien would have retained this line from The Book of Lost Tales.

05-05-2011, 06:06 AM	#10
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Well explained Pitchwife. And again (for clarity in the thread), I'm not suggesting Gimli's infatuation was only due to Galadriel's great physical beauty, but that surely he found her physically 'attractive' as well -- and considering what I would characterize as a notable difference (from a Mannish perspective) between dwarf-women, who looked like dwarf-men to Men's eyes, and the beauty of Galadriel, I still would find it odd that Gimli only found Galadriel fair because of other factors... ... and somewhat odd if only Gimli could find an Elven woman fair. But that rather specific point doesn't, in any event, mean that the Dwarves of Moria were swooning everytime they spied an Elven woman in Eregion!