Magic in Middle-earth

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I don't want to disagree with either of the above. I just wonder if one might define mental telepathy as the ability to communicate on an invisible level. As so many of the elves other unusual abilities have aspects of telepathy -- communication from fëa to fëa -- it seems to fit.

In Hollin, Legaolas seemed able to communicate with the rocks. In Fangorn, the forest. In more mundane realities, in order to communicate with something, that something ought to have a fairly advanced brain. In Middle Earth, things without brains can acquire fëa, and you can communicate with them. We have already discussed how a land might absorb something of the personality of the people who lived there, or echo in the aftermath of a strong event. I might suggest that this natural bleed of fëa might be a less structured variation of 'craftsmanship,' the putting of a bit of one's self into an item one builds.

What Legolas feels in Eregion and Fangorn is based on heightened acuity and attentuation with nature, it has nothing whatsover to do with telepathy. The Elves, by their very nature have better hearing, better sight, better acclimation to severe weather and a greater sense of the natural world. He was not "communicating" with nature, rather, he was able to gather an impression of the surroundings.

As far as the "telepathy" aspect of the Elves, there is no evidence it goes beyond the Eldar, as only the truly great Elves (along with Gandalf) were conversing in such a manner. Perhaps it didn't go beyond the Ringbearers themselves.

Edit: I had forgotten about the "Ósanwe-kenta or Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", an eight page postscrips by Tolkien written circa 1960 that explains Elven telepathy. Lammas Pengolodh (the alleged writer of the piece) refers to the Eldar as being in far greater control of their hröa than Men, hence the ability to communicate through the mind, and that the strength of will and leadership ("authority") is one of the principle means of strengthening such communication (hence, the ease with which Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Celeborn, all Eldar or Maia, and natural leaders, can converse together so). It might be conjectured that an authoritarian such as Galadriel could speak to Frodo in such a manner because the One Ring gave him the strength of will to do so.

I've got to read up on this.

[Galadriel55]

It all depends on how you define "telepathy". Is it literally "communicating on an invisible level", or is it just "having an invisible/subtle (?) connection".

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It all depends on how you define "telepathy". Is it literally "communicating on an invisible level", or is it just "having an invisible/subtle (?) connection".

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What Legolas feels in Eregion and Fangorn is based on heightened acuity and attentuation with nature, it has nothing whatsover to do with telepathy. The Elves, by their very nature have better hearing, better sight, better acclimation to severe weather and a greater sense of the natural world. He was not "communicating" with nature, rather, he was able to gather an impression of the surroundings.

As far as the "telepathy" aspect of the Elves, there is no evidence it goes beyond the Eldar, as only the truly great Elves (along with Gandalf) were conversing in such a manner. Perhaps it didn't go beyond the Ringbearers themselves.

Edit: I had forgotten about the "Ósanwe-kenta or Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", an eight page postscrips by Tolkien written circa 1960 that explains Elven telepathy. Lammas Pengolodh (the alleged writer of the piece) refers to the Eldar as being in far greater control of their hröa than Men, hence the ability to communicate through the mind, and that the strength of will and leadership ("authority") is one of the principle means of strengthening such communication (hence, the ease with which Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Celeborn, all Eldar or Maia, and natural leaders, can converse together so). It might be conjectured that an authoritarian such as Galadriel could speak to Frodo in such a manner because the One Ring gave him the strength of will to do so.

I've got to read up on this.

I spent a bit of time yesterday feeding Ósanwe-kenta into Google. The full essays don't seem to be on line, so I got snippets and second hand reviews. Apparently range is not important. The strength of the more powerful person is more important than the weaker. Urgency can be important. One's mind is by default open to such communication, but one can close off access and such a closure can overcome any effort by the outsider. All minds are essentially similar in nature, but not in power. Valar, Maia and elves have sufficient power to use it effectively, while others would receive rather than initiate. I get the impression that there is a lot more I haven't been able to access.

But getting back to Legolas, the immediate question is whether he got information from Fangorn and Hollin through the traditional five senses of the hröa, or through Ósanwe-kenta and fëa.

I quite appreciate that the five senses of the elves would be acute beyond that of humans. One can see elves picking up subtle nuance of posture, facial expression voice intonation to pick up emotion and intent. Thing is, this requires an entity with both fëa and hröa to have and display emotion, memory and thought. If in Fangorn Legolas had spotted ents or hurons, he might have read their emotions and intents, but how can one read the facial expression of Hollin's rocks?

I would agree that only the more powerful beings could use Ósanwe-kenta well. Legolas, being the son of a king, could well be more adept at it than your typical elf. To limit Ósanwe-kenta to ring bearers only, though, seems far too great a restriction.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by blantyr

To limit Ósanwe-kenta to ring bearers only, though, seems far too great a restriction.

That is why I added the edit to my last post, as it was too restrictive.

[Roy Tmofl]

If I may beat a dead horse.

Can humans use magic without it being devilry or the craft of the enemy? I mean there are virtually no accounts of humans using magic without it being related to evil.

Such as the ring wraiths some of whom were great sorcerers in their time.

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Úlairi, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death. — The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", 346

Now it seems to me that the ring wraiths when still human used their sorcerery for good "in their day."

I also remember something about the Numenorians being able to speak with animals such as birds and what not. But then again that may fall under the category of being close to nature due to their similarity to the Noldor.

Another example is of course the mouth of Sauron but that doesn't help me support a case for good sorcerery.

The only other example I ca think of is when Aragorn calmed the horse with what someone dubbed elf magic in the extended eddition of the lord of the rings. Now I realize that as probably incorrect as that was most likely either his Dunedain abilities or perhaps an ability gained from living with the elves. If it was does that mean that humans can gain the abilites of the elves?

Well then again another bit of "Magic" might be the enchanting of the blade Narsil later turned Andural but that was the work of the elves. Does anyone know if Narsil was forged by the Numenorians?

However whie I may make the argument that humas have the potential to learn perhaps elven magic and use sorcerery for good. I think it may be possible that Tolkien had all forms of sorcrery used by humans almost always go bad for a reason.

Being that really the only beings who use good magic are pretty much only divine such as Mair or half Mair in the case of Luthien and the Valar which may have been their natural powers which could also explain the elves abilities being simply natural to them or the dwarves (of yore who made mighty spells while hammers fell like ringing bells, perhaps talking of their natural ability to enchant items?)

Well anyway. It might certainly might not but also certainly might be thought that Sorcerery is unatural as it doesn't come from the weilder of it, and being that this story is heavily influenced by Roman Catholisism Tolkien may have been trying to perhaps stress the natural evil tendincies of such things as Sorcerery that humans used and perhaps even names such magic witchcraft and devilry at times.

While stressing the goodness of such things as divine power and natural abilities grnted by said divine power.

I'm sorry once again if I'm just beating a dead horse but what do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Can humans use magic without it being devilry or the craft of the enemy? I mean there are virtually no accounts of humans using magic without it being related to evil.

It seems to me that in Middle-earth the use of "magic" by those who do not possess it as part of their native ability, must then be "borrowed" from one who does have it. The perils of doing so seem readily apparent, which I think is why we don't see the Elves offering to lend any Men their Three Rings.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Now it seems to me that the ring wraiths when still human used their sorcerery for good "in their day."

How was that "sorcery" accomplished, though? Through the Nine Rings under Sauron's influence? That leads back to the borrowing. Is there any evidence they possessed such magical power before they obtained their rings?

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

I also remember something about the Numenorians being able to speak with animals such as birds and what not. But then again that may fall under the category of being close to nature due to their similarity to the Noldor.

I would put that into more of an affinity with the natural world, in line with that possessed by Elves (and Hobbits).

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

Another example is of course the mouth of Sauron but that doesn't help me support a case for good sorcerery.

I think in his case his magic was similar to the Ringwraiths': Their own beings and wills had been wholly swallowed by Sauron, to the point that they were in practice mere extensions of his own being. The Mouth seems to be a like state, having no name of his own, and being no one apart from his Master.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

The only other example I ca think of is when Aragorn calmed the horse with what someone dubbed elf magic in the extended eddition of the lord of the rings. Now I realize that as probably incorrect as that was most likely either his Dunedain abilities or perhaps an ability gained from living with the elves. If it was does that mean that humans can gain the abilites of the elves?

I don't remember that in the movies, but at any rate I don't consider happenings there to be relevant to the books. Aragorn had elven-blood too though, so maybe that's a consideration.

Originally Posted by Roy Tmofl

However whie I may make the argument that humas have the potential to learn perhaps elven magic and use sorcerery for good. I think it may be possible that Tolkien had all forms of sorcrery used by humans almost always go bad for a reason.

I just don't see Tolkien's magic as being available for just anyone to learn and use. That's my opinion only, though,

[Roy Tmofl]

Ah I see. I like that idea. Magic having to be granted if is not natural. Such as the Dunedain gaining the ability to talk to animals after the valar blessed them and the elves always having this ability and the ability to work magic through song could be possibly because they were granted this as a natural ability by Eru. The drawves may have gained the ability to enchant their works as a blessing from Aule. Now that I think about it the Numenorian swords being magical could once again be from the Valar blesing them as I don't believe any other human race crafted a magic weapon of any kind.

Well anyways. Thank you very much for your help.