Why did Legolas set sail for the Grey Havens only after Aragorn's death?

[Galin]

According to The Lord of the Rings (author-published of course) the Eldar are the Elves of Aman plus the Sindar only (and returning Noldor of course). The East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were not considered Eldar, nor their languages Eldarin (Appendix F).

However Legolas had Sindarin blood in any case. I know The Silmarillion says (a bit) differently, but I'm not sure Tolkien was paying full attention to what he had already published when he wrote that which Christopher Tolkien chose to put into the 1977 Silmarillion.

[LadyBrooke]

But even using the LotR's definition of Eldar, and not the Silm version, which would need to be clarified as to which version is used as some of use one and others the other, Legolas also proclaims himself a Silvan elf, not an Eldar. When entering Hollin, he says "the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk." No matter which book is used, somewhere there is evidence that Legolas was not one of the Eldar. In Letters, Tolkien states that he is one of the Woodelves. I fail to see the evidence that Legolas is an Eldar, to contradict the clearly stated, by Legolas himself, idea the Legolas is one of the Silvan elves.

And part Eldar does not count as Eldar. For example, Finrod is part Vanyar and Teleri, so can we proclaim him to be Vanyar or Teleri in spite of it being stated he is one of the Noldor?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

But even using the LotR's definition of Eldar, and not the Silm version, which would need to be clarified as to which version is used as some of use one and others the other, Legolas also proclaims himself a Silvan elf, not an Eldar. When entering Hollin, he says "the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk."

I don't think that would necessarily be a point against Legolas being Sindarin.
Since silvan is not capitalised there, I could see that as Legolas speaking not as a Silvan Elf, but rather a silvan (wood-dwelling) elf to whom the culture of the Noldor was alien.

[Galin]

Culturally I would say Legolas is one of the Tawarwaith or Wood-elves, but according to one description, the remigrant Sindar might have brought at least some measure of West-elven culture with them too. A late text (Unfinished Tales) generally notes that these Silvan Teleri had become a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari, but that under Sindarin leadership they 'became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom,' and some learned writing from the Sindar.

This at least seems (to me anyway) to imply that they brought some Beleriandic culture into play, noting the history of Galadriel and Celeborn relates that the Silvan Elves of Lorien became subject to 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture. Legolas, as the son of a Sinda, was the son of an Elda... by blood he might be fully Sindarin, or not. But what does blood mean regarding this question?


However another late text in Unfinished Tales notes Oropher and folk: 'wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.'

As I said above, however Legolas had Sindarin blood (at least in part) in any case, but admittedly I'm not really sure what that alone might mean as far as being accounted an Elda or not -- in The Lord of the Rings the Eldar are the West-elves while the Silvans of Lorien and Mirkwood are the East-elves -- and in my opinion Legolas did not himself live in Beleriand at least, about as West as one could go without sailing to Aman.


It's possible (though I've no text to support it) that the 'definition' of Eldar Tolkien later wrote about (taken up into The Silmarillion by CJRT) was yet another internal distinction: meaning Eldar first referred to all Elves (Peoples of the Stars), then to the West-elves, then later to the Marchers (Eldor), whether or not they had reached Beleriand.

I'm not sure Tolkien saw the latter idea as an internal addition to the use or application of Eldar (rather than forgetting what he had actually published already), but the term seems to have changed a bit internally in any case.

Erm, what was the question again!

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galin

Erm, what was the question again!

I think there is intense debate about the definitions of the words 'eldar' and 'sindar'. I fear I may have to listen very carefully as the hair and eye color of assorted characters might shift unexpectedly.

[LadyBrooke]

Eldar is a hard word to define in Tolkien works. In various places, it seems to mean the elves that sailed across the sea, the elves that intended to sail regardless of whether they made it, and just a plain synonym for elf. Rereading LotR this afternoon, I was struck by a line that talked about the lifespan of the Eldar. It seemed an odd way to phrase it to me...after all, if they Eldar are only those elves that intended to sail, does that mean the Nandor and Avari have a different life span? Calaquendi and Moriquendi are much simpler...

In my opinion, blood doesn't matter, as much as what the person declares himself to be - after all, we consider the members of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin to be Noldor, in spite of the fact that we know that Finarfin's children were only a quarter Noldor, and Fingolfin's couldn't have been more then three-quarters. Going back to the question of Legolas, I think it is impossible to give a definite answer on whether he was one, because we simply don't know. His family tree is very sketchy, and so is the definition if Eldar.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Rereading LotR this afternoon, I was struck by a line that talked about the lifespan of the Eldar. It seemed an odd way to phrase it to me...after all, if they Eldar are only those elves that intended to sail, does that mean the Nandor and Avari have a different life span? Calaquendi and Moriquendi are much simpler...

All Elves are basically immortal unless they are killed or they die from weariness. After their death most go to the Halls of Mandos*. Their fear stay there until (and unless) they are rebodied.

*Some Elves don't accept the summons of Mandos and do not come to his Halls, but I'm really hazy on that...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Eldar is a hard word to define in Tolkien works. In various places, it seems to mean the elves that sailed across the sea, the elves that intended to sail regardless of whether they made it, and just a plain synonym for elf.

If push comes to shove, for myself I don't see why the author-published definition should not take first place above 'unpublished' writing -- and I think The Lord of the Rings is clear enough, despite any examples that might be raised otherwise, that technically at least, 'Eldar' does not refer to all Elves, as Appendix F draws a rather notable distinction (among the Quendi the Eldar were as kings). Also, from Appendix F again:

'... and hence it [Sindarin] was the tongue of all those Elves and Elf-lords that appear in this history. For these were all of Eldarin race, even where the folk that they ruled were of lesser kindreds.'

One could push Tolkien concerning the word 'all' here, but shirly Thranduil was an Elf lord, and no Elf appears more 'in this history' than the son of this ruler, Legolas Greenleaf. Unless I'm reading this wrongly...

In my opinion, blood doesn't matter, as much as what the person declares himself to be - after all, we consider (...)

Still, in a given discussion I think Legolas could claim to be Eldarin as well as one of the Silvan Folk, if he thought that the former distinction was relevant... depending upon whether or not a son or daughter of a confirmed Elda can also be said to be Eldarin for whatever reason.

Is the son of a Light Elf himself a Dark Elf because he had not lived in Aman nor seen the light of the Trees? Or is there something outside of the 'definition' that can or might be considered?