Itaril

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I still say, when PJ stuck with the original plot, the movie was magical. Even when dialogue of one character in the book was stated by another character in the movie, it was moving. But everytime PJ strayed away with his fancies, the sequences were farcical. Think about it:

I don't know...I think PJ just plain didn't want to do the elves right. I'm just hoping that Golden Haired Thranduil doesn't end up dish water blonde (Hi Celeborn the gray) or with a receding hairline. Of course, that would make special snowflake Tauriel look so much better next to that ugly old elf....

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

From a related comment in another thread:

Originally Posted by Rumil

And another Mary-Sue-iel...

... strong female roles are thin on Middle Earth in Tolkien's work ...

Which begs the question: So why introduce them?

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

... I think PJ just plain didn't want to do the elves right...

The elves? Look what short shrift he gave the hobbits! I mean, the wounded Frodo didn't get to ride Glorfindel's great white horse to safety at the Ford of Bruinen. The brunette elf chick Arwen got to do that. Merry didn't get his big dramatic scene with Théoden on the Pelennor Fields, sending the dying King off to drink mead with his ancestors in Valhala. The Rohan blonde chick, Éowyn, got that big moment. And of course, all the hobbits lost out when they didn't get to scour the Shire of evil men, Saruman, and Wormtongue. Talk about getting royally screwed so that some barely mentioned Appendix girls could get in more implausible, forced screen time swapping spit with -- or simply drooling over -- Aragorn. The elves got off lucky by comparison.

Now that Peter Jackson has to make a movie ostensibly about one particular hobbit -- and a confirmed bachelor at that -- he invents yet another elf-chick character to waste precious screen time that the schizoid Smeagol-Gollum could easily employ to memorable effect. If any character deserves an expanded role in these films, then the pathetic/treacherous Smeagol-Gollum does. I mean, face it, the elves have pretty much given up on Middle-earth. They mostly just want to leave. So I say, let them. At any rate, Bilbo Baggins and Smeagool-Gollum have more to do with the fate of Middle-earth than any elf-chick afterthought possibly could. These films should make that truth abundantly clear.

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Of course, that would make special snowflake Tauriel look so much better next to that ugly old elf....

I have no confidence that the special snowflake Tauriel will look anything but instantly risible next to just about anyone: elf, dwarf, man, or hobbit -- ugly or otherwise.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

The elves? Look what short shrift he gave the hobbits! I mean, the wounded Frodo didn't get to ride Glorfindel's great white horse to safety at the Ford of Bruinen. The brunette elf chick Arwen got to do that. Merry didn't get his big dramatic scene with Théoden on the Pelennor Fields, sending the dying King off to drink mead with his ancestors in Valhala. The Rohan blonde chick, Éowyn, got that big moment. And of course, all the hobbits lost out when they didn't get to scour the Shire of evil men, Saruman, and Wormtongue. Talk about getting royally screwed so that some barely mentioned Appendix girls could get in more implausible, forced screen time swapping spit with -- or simply drooling over -- Aragorn. The elves got off lucky by comparison.

Well by elves, I was mainly referring to the male elves...to be frank, I tend to forget Arwen was even there. Out of the male elves, Elrond now has a receding hairline, anger management issues, and a hatred of men. Celeborn has grey hair and a speech impediment, Haldir and co are apparently such bad soldiers that every single one dies at Helm's deep, Legolas apparently has to state the obvious (A Diversion! Orcs! A Chair!*) every single time, and half the unnamed elves, you can't even tell their gender.....

Now that Peter Jackson has to make a movie ostensibly about one particular hobbit -- and a confirmed bachelor at that -- he invents yet another elf-chick character to waste precious screen time that the schizoid Smeagol-Gollum could easily employ to memorable effect.

Ahh...but then PJ wouldn't have his own characters, and he'd just be *gasp* following what the books says. Everybody knows that audiences these days can't watch movies that don't have Action! Hot Women! Dumb Jokes!

If any character deserves an expanded role in these films, then the pathetic/treacherous Smeagol-Gollum does. I mean, face it, the elves have pretty much given up on Middle-earth. They mostly just want to leave. So I say, let them. At any rate, Bilbo Baggins and Smeagool-Gollum have more to do with the fate of Middle-earth than any elf-chick afterthought possibly could. These films should make that truth abundantly clear.

Not all the elves do...Celeborn and Thranduil both stay past the end of the War of the Ring, which is a big reason that I like them better then Elrond or Galadriel...they seem so much more alive. It's also one of the reasons I dislike this Tauriel character so much - he already has wonderful elves in Galion and Thranduil for Mirkwood, he doesn't need another one.

I have no confidence that the special snowflake Tauriel will look anything but instantly risible next to just about anyone: elf, dwarf, man, or hobbit -- ugly or otherwise.

That was sarcasm on my part...note the special snowflake description. I only call people that when I'm implying that they're really only special because mommy (or in this case, PJ) thinks they're oh so special. PJ, in my opinion, has messed up so badly that he's no longer deserving of the term adapter - he's no better then a glorified fanfic author.

*One of these might be an invention on my part, however, everybody knows Legolas was thinking it at some point.

[Galadriel55]

I think that TMT has a good point about Gollum. That's one interesting character, with plenty ways to develop it more (although in LOTR PJ simply murdered it! ). I think that he should get more attention than some Itaril-Tauriel blasphemy. Unless it's going to be an expanded version of that sequence where he decays alive as he turns into that colourless skeleton...

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

... note the special snowflake description. I only call people that when I'm implying that they're really only special because mommy (or in this case, PJ) thinks they're oh so special.

I like that "special snowflake" characterization. I had gotten stuck trying to fill out the last line of a verse stanza with something that had to rhyme with "cast" or "passed," etc. I really wanted to use "aghast" but I couldn't make it fit following the comic-book references in line 5. Your mention of a snowflake at least gave me something to work with. Still not what I wanted to get across, but at least I've got something passable for the present. Thanks again for the helpful suggestion.

Murkwood Mary Sue's come back
Rebranded and recast.
First "Itaril" imploded, now
It’s "Tauriel" who’s passed
From Vicky Vale to Lois Lane:
A snowflake melting fast.

I give the elves credit for trying to write poetry, Tolkien's own favored means of literary expression. However, since I don't speak, read, or write Elvish dialects, I have to go with Bilbo Baggins as the hobbit Homer of Middle-earth. Naturally, none of this versification stuff has a chance in hell of making it into a Peter Jackson hack-and-slash action extravaganza. Now, if instead of Murkwood Mary Sue disemboweling orcs, wargs, and giant spiders, this Tauriel turned into an elegant, elvish Edna St. Vincent Millay, saying of the world's cruelty and injustice:

I know.
But I do not approve.
And I am not resigned.

... then I could appreciate such truly feminine strength and character. Of course, Galadriel would deliver such lines with more authority than Murkwood Mary Sue, just returned from her morning kung-fu choreography training, but if this story absolutely has to have something quintessentially elvish going on in King Thranduil's household while Bilbo skulks about, unseen, looking for a way to free his dwarf companions, then I would not mind witnessing a timelessly young elvish wordsmith audibly composing trenchant verse in King Thranduil's library. I think an invisible Bilbo would find that experience both enchanting and edifying, as well.

And then I woke up ...

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

I like that "special snowflake" characterization. I had gotten stuck trying to fill out the last line of a verse stanza with something that had to rhyme with "cast" or "passed," etc. I really wanted to use "aghast" but I couldn't make it fit following the comic-book references in line 5. Your mention of a snowflake at least gave me something to work with. Still not what I wanted to get across, but at least I've got something passable for the present. Thanks again for the helpful suggestion.

You're welcome! I really like your poems. I'd try one, but in my family, my sister got all the poetry skills, and I got the essay writing skills...But yours are wonderful.

Naturally, none of this versification stuff has a chance in hell of making it into a Peter Jackson hack-and-slash action extravaganza. Now, if instead of Murkwood Mary Sue disemboweling orcs, wargs, and giant spiders, this Tauriel turned into an elegant, elvish Edna St. Vincent Millay, saying of the world's cruelty and injustice:

I know.
But I do not approve.
And I am not resigned.

... then I could appreciate such truly feminine strength and character. Of course, Galadriel would deliver such lines with more authority than Murkwood Mary Sue, just returned from her morning kung-fu choreography training, but if this story absolutely has to have something quintessentially elvish going on in King Thranduil's household while Bilbo skulks about, unseen, looking for a way to free his dwarf companions, then I would not mind witnessing a timelessly young elvish wordsmith audibly composing trenchant verse in King Thranduil's library. I think an invisible Bilbo would find that experience both enchanting and edifying, as well.

I don't think I'd mind this character, if she was what you are describing - a minor background character, inserted to set the mood in Thranduil's caverns, acting in an elvish fashion. Unfortunately, she's some mary sue of a modern woman, poorly disguised as an elf. *sigh* I'm just hoping that she isn't inserted onto the White Council or anything - one woman on the Council - Galadriel, not Tauriel. Also, I'm wondering who all they're going to place onto the Council - Galadriel, Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, and Elrond of course. But what about Celeborn or Cirdan, neither of who, as far as I am aware, have been cast. If Tauriel gets on it, and neither of them do.... Must remember to wear pointy high heels to the movie that day....

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by Rumil in another thread:

... strong female roles are thin on Middle Earth in Tolkien's work ...

Granted, but I think that certain characteristics of hobbits: namely, their shyness, love of growing plants, and relatively small stature, for example, substitute in many cases for appearance and behavior that men typically associate with women. I wouldn't go so far as to call hobbits "effeminate" by nature, but they do tend to live and act in ways antithetical to the adolescent, swaggering machismo that animates so much of infantile male mythology. Therefore, by creating morally "strong" hobbit characters like Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, Tolkien essentially provided what strong, mature women would have supplied, but without the mythological penalty of putting girls into a boy's fantasy adventure.

I say these things because I once wanted to pay tribute to a strong woman who I consider one of my country's real heroes: a mother who had lost her son in Iraq who subsequently confronted the President of the United States from a position of enormous relative powerlessness but far greater moral authority. For inspiration, my first thoughts turned to Shakespeare's Measure for Measure, where Isabella pleads with a judge for her condemned brother's life. Then I thought of Macbeth and Hamlet in reference to the unequal struggle with bloody power figures. Then I thought of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, specifically "Riddles in the Dark" and "The Shadow of the Past," respectively. Then this happened:

Metrics for Measure
(Dedicated to Cindy Sheehan)

The pricking of his thumbs begins to sting
As something wicked comes his way unsought:
The awful truth about the play as thing
Wherein the conscience of the prince is caught

Now Isabella camps outside his ranch
Her silent supplication real not fake
Her rude requests for justice make him blanch
Her simple power poised to grab and shake

Her time, down in a roadside ditch, she bides
With twenty*-hundred crosses witness mute
While safe within his bubble he resides
The gashes in the dead his lies confute

His thought no counsel credible informs
So on he stumbles, mouthing scripted rhyme
Upon the gibbet’s scaffold he performs
For his allotted fifteen minutes’ time

An angry ape with glassy essence clear
Before high heaven trotting out his trick
Afraid of nothing quite so much as fear
Which makes splenetic angels laugh till sick

Assured of his own ignorance he pressed
To have himself informed of what he knew
In little brief authority he dressed
So as to mask his nakedness from view

His counselor, the clown, roved here and there
Professing, like Rasputin, cures to know
For royal hemophilia laid bare
As turds that blossom on the frozen snow

But still the would-be great no greatness had
They thus could only mock the small who sobbed
Until disrobed, in disrepute unclad,
Their perfidy showed clear to those they’d robbed

But Gandalf once to Frodo Baggins said,
In telling him his uncle Bilbo’s tale,
That even small ones lost in fear and dread
Can turn the blast of fortune’s greatest gale

For Bilbo spared the vicious Gollum’s good
In pity of one long so lonely lost
And would not strike him even though he could
Which in the end saved all great evil’s cost

No doubt some live who maybe ought to die
And some that die deserve to live instead
But who shall make of his own life a lie
Who deals out death in judgment of the dead?

And as the wizard might have said at length
What Isabella did, a court to sway:
How excellent to have a giant’s strength
But tyrannous to use it in that way

For even very wise ones cannot see
The end to all the mischief that ensues
From feckless fights and their mad misery
As complex as a rainbow’s many hues

And as such smallish suitors might combine
Soliciting compassion as their cause
They plead for pity in a single line
That pelting petty officers might pause

For making thunder just to hear the noise
And lightning just to see the awe and shock
If overused by adolescent boys
Will look more like the chicken than the hawk

They like it well enough when first they think
That all will go exactly as they dream
But soon enough they shun the fetid stink
That clogs the nose and gags them till they scream

Those wise who hold great power in reserve
And do not waste it in a foolish deed
Have moral power more which well will serve
When faced with future’s grave and greater need

Thus Isabella Baggins now implores
The one who can to pity those who serve
And bring them home from bloody foreign shores
To reap the future lives that they deserve

We only ask for metrics we can use
To measure what is often promised glib
By bureaucrats who went and lit the fuse
And now can only hedge, and stall, and fib

The prince from all his lies, has not escaped
Despite the chimps and baboons that he aped
Upon this dwarfish thief with soul misshaped
His title's giant robe hangs loosely draped

* Note: As of early 2008, the number of dead American soldiers in Iraq had reached 4,000 – or “forty hundred,” as the poetic meter would have us mark the doubling yet again of premature graves filled with more luckless victims of vainglorious venality.

Michael Murry, “The Misfortune Teller,” Copyright 2005, 2008, 2011

So, it appears that deep down in my own psyche, I associate strong women and hobbits, without the distracting violence and sexuality that attend more "modern" conceptions of "femininity" and "strength." Whether Tolkien intended that sort of subliminal association or not, I cannot say; but it seems to me that with the best qualities of hobbits to work with, Professor Tolkien did not require much in the way of overt female roles to communicate his major themes and issues.

Just a few thoughts and verse stanzas on the subject ...

[Nerwen]

I think some named Elven characters would be needed (yes, even in a hypothetical faithful version). I mean, Elves turn up quite a bit in the book, but are mostly referred to collectively : "they said this", and "they said that". That would probably not work in a film. So I've got no objection to PJ throwing in an Elf-maid named Tauriel– as long as she's a minor character, and not another version of "Itaril".

Here's hoping the change of name indicates a change of plan. Jackson has supposedly said she's not to be Leggy's love-interest, which reduces the Mary-Sue factor somewhat.

On the other hand, there's speculation she's going to be Bard's love-interest...

Oh, and though in every reference to this new character on the net, she's "Tauriel, daughter of Mirkwood", the name doesn't, in fact, mean this at all. Wonder where that came from.

[Galadriel]

What about this Tauriel chick? I heard she's affiliated with Thranduil and/or Legolas...

[narfforc]

The name Tauriel say to me The Lady of the Forest.....will she be Thranduil's wife?


Orome= Tauron= Lord of Forests/Forester.

Galadriel= The Lady of the Tree.


Any thoughts on this?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Galadriel= The Lady of the Tree.

Galadh=tree. Galad=light. Riel=rig+el=garland+lady

Galadriel=Lady Crowned/Garlanded with Light.

Tauriel: taur=forset -iel=daughter Tauriel=Daughter of the Forest


Why the speculations about Elvish, though?

[Galin]

Well it's not the first time someone thought Galadriel's name was associated with trees...

'When Celeborn and Galadriel became the ruler of the Elves of Lórien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name of Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not so in Lórien itself.' Unfinished Tales

[TheMisfortuneTeller]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Galadh=tree. Galad=light. Riel=rig+el=garland+lady

Galadriel=Lady Crowned/Garlanded with Light.

Tauriel: taur=forset -iel=daughter Tauriel=Daughter of the Forest


Why the speculations about Elvish, though?

J. R. R. Tolkien did not invent this pseudo-character Itaril/Tauriel. Peter Jackson did. And Peter Jackson says that the name means "Daughter of Mirkwood," referring to the name that men gave to Greenwood Forest after the Necromancer (i.e., Sauron) began spreading his evil shadow over the place in 1050 of the Third Age. Peter Jackson, a man (of sorts) has created this pseudo-character and given it (her) a name derived at least partially from the languages of men and not exclusively from the languages of elves.

In reality, though, given the transparent pandering to teeny-bopper/horny-adolescent consumer demographics, the name most likely means "actress with breasts from the television series Lost who mostly appears in tight-fitting jeans and a wet t-shirt."

As for all the Tree-Worshipping stuff -- especially in Northern Europe -- I recommend Chapter IX from Sir James George Frazer's The Golden Bough (a Study in Magic and Religion):

http://www.bartleby.com/196/17.html

Personally, though, if I had to choose between gods in trees vs godesses in tight-fitting jeans and wet t-shirts, I'd choose, well, ...

[Galadriel55]

(I'm sure this was mentioned before, but I can't find where)

"Tauriel" - Daughter of the Forest - could have no other meaning than "The Daughter of the Mirkwood Forest". PJ and his simplifications.

I think it's better that PJ invented his own name, even if he used Tolkien' elvish. I can't help associating "Itaril" with Idril (wel, PJ took it from here), and I don't want to lose respect for her.

[Galin]

Also Itaril is attested as the Quenya form of Idril, so while not impossible, shirly something Sindarin is better here.

Tauriel is not derived from a Mannish language, and fits Quenya in form and meaning as well as Grey elven... though again better thought of as Sindarin for an Elf of Taur-e-Ndaedelos.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by TheMisfortuneTeller

J. R. R. Tolkien did not invent this pseudo-character Itaril/Tauriel. Peter Jackson did. And Peter Jackson says that the name means "Daughter of Mirkwood," referring to the name that men gave to Greenwood Forest after the Necromancer (i.e., Sauron) began spreading his evil shadow over the place in 1050 of the Third Age. Peter Jackson, a man (of sorts) has created this pseudo-character and given it (her) a name derived at least partially from the languages of men and not exclusively from the languages of elves.

What G55 and Galen said. The name is Elvish, not Mannish, and doesn't literally mean "Daughter of Mirkwood", anyway. It's really not a bad choice.

Of course, this is to say nothing of what the actual character will be like, something about which we can only speculate.

[narfforc]

If such a person as Tauriel ever existed then it is by no means whatsoever that she would be Daughter of Mirkwood Forest. If she were related to Thranduil or his father Oropher she may well have been a Sindar and not Silvan, if so then she may have been a survivor of Doriath or come from Lorien, nothing can be taken for granted here........ if you are going to make things up then why not make her the sister of Amdir or Amroth.....Thranduils wife....Legolas's sister.... blah blah blah.. we know nothing of this elf other than she doesn't exist... the same as Lurtz didn't and Ugluk did.