What did they think?

[LadyBrooke]

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

But in comparison to Melkor, the Morgoth, he was qualitatively a different Dark Lord altogether. The sheer rapacity of Morgoth cost him the War of the Jewels in the first place. To what extent did Morgoth's character as a Vala, as the most broadly gifted of the Valar, skew his relation to the orcs? He was not a maker like Aule, that enjoyed the making and the thing made, but wanted to be served.

Hmm...but at the same time, unless my memory serves me wrong, wasn't Morgoth supposed to be quite like Aule? Of course, Aule created the dwarves out of tenderness and impatience, so there are the differences...I believe, personally, that Sauron wouldn't have been opposed to creating things to serve him. He did after all, twist the Nazgul from humans into wraiths and was the former commander of the werewolves in the First Age. The Nazgul seem to me, a more refined version of Morgoth's twisting of elves (or men, Maiar, ect. based on your personal belief and canon), designed to create servants. At the same time, the book orcs seem to have a bit more independence then the Nazgul, able to speak words that are almost anti-Sauron, where as the Nazgul are completely in thrall to him. Morgoth's servants and creations almost seem to have more independence of him then Sauron's do...

And did not Sauron after the fall of Angband have more utopian desires? He was a Maia of Aule, if my memory serves me well...

Your memory serves you well. Sauron, as well as Saruman, were both Maiar of Aule. He did have utopian desires...one of the things I find interesting, is that in spite of the typical portrayal of Tolkien's works as black and white, Tolkien wrote (in one of his letters, which I am too lazy to go look up at 2 a.m...) that he did not write absolute evil. Thoughts?

To slightly answer the original question, I find that the orcs in the book are not nearly as filthy or barbarian like as the ones in the movie. They do have leaders, and a somewhat complex leadership system...of course, there are the hints of cannibalism, but even those tend to be somewhat complex, such as the banter between Shagrat and Gorbag about who should go in the pot.... Actually, Shagrat seems a good argument against the idea of orcs as barbarians - he talks about the good old days, and clearly shows reasoning skills. Certain orcs, such as Azog seem to have set up kingdoms...while they're not as advanced as the elves or men, they seem to not be on the animal like level from the movie.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

I seconf this!

Originally Posted by Brooke

Your memory serves you well. Sauron, as well as Saruman, were both Maiar of Aule. He did have utopian desires...one of the things I find interesting, is that in spite of the typical portrayal of Tolkien's works as black and white, Tolkien wrote (in one of his letters, which I am too lazy to go look up at 2 a.m...) that he did not write absolute evil. Thoughts?

I remember suggesting in some other thread that not a single person is perfectly black or perfectly white. I gave Morgoth as an example (he wasn't evil at the start, and before he marred the Ainulindale he played a role in making it, and therefore Ea) and someone quoted Tolkien's letter that said that Morgoth is indeed not pure black.

Originally Posted by Brooke

To slightly answer the original question, I find that the orcs in the book are not nearly as filthy or barbarian like as the ones in the movie. They do have leaders, and a somewhat complex leadership system...of course, there are the hints of cannibalism, but even those tend to be somewhat complex, such as the banter between Shagrat and Gorbag about who should go in the pot....

Agreed and seconded. Also, Gorbag has quite a personality - an orc philosopher? Grishnakh is another interesting one as well.

Originally Posted by Väinämöinen

I have always wondered more about Sauron and the orcs. After all, Morgoth created the orcs as a race, and Sauron was of a different temperament. Does anyone know of any specific passages from the Lord of the Rings or Unfinished Tales that mentions Sauron's view of the matter?

I remember a passage about the Witch King commanding a futile assault on Minas Tirith, ordering the orcs to a sure death, just to feel through the defenses of the city.

A lot of orcish atttacks are based on numbers - there are more of us so we just run forward and drown you, even though many of us will be killed in the process.

[Väinämöinen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Welcome to the forums! Refreshing to have a new member that is (presumably, based on the name, long coherent post, and the fact that you're not trying to sell anything) not a spam bot.

Thanks.

Hmm...but at the same time, unless my memory serves me wrong, wasn't Morgoth supposed to be quite like Aule? Of course, Aule created the dwarves out of tenderness and impatience, so there are the differences...I believe, personally, that Sauron wouldn't have been opposed to creating things to serve him.

It's just that the creation of the orcs seems to me such a great cruelty and perversion that it could only have originated with Morgoth. Sauron no doubt found them useful, but the question is if he would have gone out of his way to invent them in the first place, but who can say.