The Northern Kingdoms - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 07-15-2011, 10:00 AM

Well, the "histories" given in the Appendices of Arnor and Gondor were supposedly obtained by the hobbit authors, and I would suspect that at the time of the War of the Ring much more was generally known about the history of Gondor than of Arnor. That's borne out, I think, by the fact that the Heirs of Elendil existed for so long unnoticed by most. Probably in the archives of Minas Tirith there were more details of the disunion of Arnor, and maybe at Fornost or Annúminas, but who had searched them?
Oh, Gandalf, Elrond, and likely Aragorn knew some more information about the matter, but it just doesn't appear to have been a major concern of the hobbits to go into detail about it.

As for why the sons of Eärendur began fighting, maybe it began out of a petty dispute about the way the kingdom was being run, and was escalated by personal grudges and jealousies. That's pretty general, I know, but RL kingdoms have been known to fall from such small beginnings.

Nogrod · 07-16-2011, 11:26 AM

An easy explanation suggests itself in here. Tolkien just never got into writing about the Northern Kingdoms as he had more interesting stuff to think and write about. I mean we know a lot about some places and people (elves, maiar...) but astonishingly little about others. I don't think the prof had any "secret reasons" for posterity to ponder upon why there was such little on some subjects - he just made what he had time for for those things he was more interested himself.

Had he lived for a hundred years we might have the "Histories of the Northern Kingdoms" as well to read?

And what others books could we read then?

"The Maiar: a full account of their birth, relations and deeds"
"The History of the Elves staying in Valinor"
"The fates of the Dwarves of Nogrod"
"Chronicle of the Haradrim"
"The Childhood of Tom Bombadill"
"Traditional Easterling Folklore"
"The secret uncloaked: Wings or Not? The Full History of the Balrogs"

Invent your own!

Elmo · 08-01-2011, 11:37 AM

The 'unexplained vistas' is a great part of Tolkien's attraction, if he explained every little bit of his world and its history, well, they'd be no need for this forum for one!

Eruhen · 08-02-2011, 03:34 PM

"A Detailed Account of the Wanderings and Mission of the Blue Wizards"
"The Journeys of the Entwives, as Recorded by the Elves of Lorien"
"An Atlas of Arda, from the Records of the Guild of Seafarers"

Morthoron · 08-03-2011, 08:26 AM

"Tom Bombadil and the First Squirrel Dropping: A Memoir"

FlimFlamSam · 08-06-2011, 10:30 AM

ArquenoSingollo72 spoke: [Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories]
Sure.
I'll give you one, and its fairly simple too.

There are several instances given of twins being born in Middle-earth history.
Why not a case of triplets?

The only real information given about Amlaith is that he is credited as "eldest son".
You could theorize that triplets might all feel to have the same claim to the crown, and decided to split the kingdom 3-ways as an answer.

There ya go. Food for thought.

Curiously, Weathertop/Amon Sul is also similar in theory to the Three-farthing stone of the Shire (which had 4 farthings), who followed "The Rules" (of the King) of which the division of the realm was still in existence, and recognized as such, and known to hobbits at Bree c.1300, since the realm was not "reunited" until the days of Argeleb I (ruled 1349-1356), where Arthedain having claimed all the realm signified by the King taking a name with the prefix ar- to recognize this, still had Cardolan and Rhudaur in existence.

ArquenoSingollo72 · 08-06-2011, 03:57 PM

Thank You FlimFlamSam, I've Been Studying The Subject For 25 Years And Triplets Never Entered My (Empty) Head. It Really Would Explain It All, I Read D. Martinez's Essays On Arnor But His Theories (Although Very Good) Never Entirely Convinced Me. On A Similar Subject I Read Somewhere That Atanatar Alcarin's Sons And Successors Narmacil & Calmacil Were Twins And Ruled Jointly, Thank You Again FlimFlamSam.

07-15-2011, 10:00 AM	#1
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	Well, the "histories" given in the Appendices of Arnor and Gondor were supposedly obtained by the hobbit authors, and I would suspect that at the time of the War of the Ring much more was generally known about the history of Gondor than of Arnor. That's borne out, I think, by the fact that the Heirs of Elendil existed for so long unnoticed by most. Probably in the archives of Minas Tirith there were more details of the disunion of Arnor, and maybe at Fornost or Annúminas, but who had searched them? Oh, Gandalf, Elrond, and likely Aragorn knew some more information about the matter, but it just doesn't appear to have been a major concern of the hobbits to go into detail about it. As for why the sons of Eärendur began fighting, maybe it began out of a petty dispute about the way the kingdom was being run, and was escalated by personal grudges and jealousies. That's pretty general, I know, but RL kingdoms have been known to fall from such small beginnings. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

07-16-2011, 11:26 AM	#2
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	An easy explanation suggests itself in here. Tolkien just never got into writing about the Northern Kingdoms as he had more interesting stuff to think and write about. I mean we know a lot about some places and people (elves, maiar...) but astonishingly little about others. I don't think the prof had any "secret reasons" for posterity to ponder upon why there was such little on some subjects - he just made what he had time for for those things he was more interested himself. Had he lived for a hundred years we might have the "Histories of the Northern Kingdoms" as well to read? And what others books could we read then? "The Maiar: a full account of their birth, relations and deeds" "The History of the Elves staying in Valinor" "The fates of the Dwarves of Nogrod" "Chronicle of the Haradrim" "The Childhood of Tom Bombadill" "Traditional Easterling Folklore" "The secret uncloaked: Wings or Not? The Full History of the Balrogs" Invent your own! __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

08-01-2011, 11:37 AM	#3
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	The 'unexplained vistas' is a great part of Tolkien's attraction, if he explained every little bit of his world and its history, well, they'd be no need for this forum for one! __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

08-02-2011, 03:34 PM	#4
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	"A Detailed Account of the Wanderings and Mission of the Blue Wizards" "The Journeys of the Entwives, as Recorded by the Elves of Lorien" "An Atlas of Arda, from the Records of the Guild of Seafarers" __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

08-03-2011, 08:26 AM	#5
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	"Tom Bombadil and the First Squirrel Dropping: A Memoir" __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

08-06-2011, 10:30 AM	#6
FlimFlamSam Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 25	Theories ArquenoSingollo72 spoke: [Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories] Sure. I'll give you one, and its fairly simple too. There are several instances given of twins being born in Middle-earth history. Why not a case of triplets? The only real information given about Amlaith is that he is credited as "eldest son". You could theorize that triplets might all feel to have the same claim to the crown, and decided to split the kingdom 3-ways as an answer. There ya go. Food for thought. Curiously, Weathertop/Amon Sul is also similar in theory to the Three-farthing stone of the Shire (which had 4 farthings), who followed "The Rules" (of the King) of which the division of the realm was still in existence, and recognized as such, and known to hobbits at Bree c.1300, since the realm was not "reunited" until the days of Argeleb I (ruled 1349-1356), where Arthedain having claimed all the realm signified by the King taking a name with the prefix ar- to recognize this, still had Cardolan and Rhudaur in existence.

08-06-2011, 03:57 PM	#7
ArquenoSingollo72 Newly Deceased Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3	Thank You FlimFlamSam, I've Been Studying The Subject For 25 Years And Triplets Never Entered My (Empty) Head. It Really Would Explain It All, I Read D. Martinez's Essays On Arnor But His Theories (Although Very Good) Never Entirely Convinced Me. On A Similar Subject I Read Somewhere That Atanatar Alcarin's Sons And Successors Narmacil & Calmacil Were Twins And Ruled Jointly, Thank You Again FlimFlamSam.