Why is it so difficult?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

All right. So I'll dismiss the long-standing covert letter campaign to Tolkien groups and their heads (and fans) alluding to his Silmarillion and complaining that readers wouldn't like it according to the publisher; along with letters to the publisher itself.

Or other little side-notes in things like The Road Goes Ever On: A Song Cycle or The Adventures of Tom Bombadil trying to generate interest in fans for his mass of jumbled notes and half completed and often contrary tales he called The Silmarillion, where the general public believed it to be complete and ready for publication and simply shunned by the publishing company. Not to mention public appearances where the same was done.

Personally, I like the "finished" Silmarillion as a stand-alone work, for all its faults. I am grateful to CT for seeing to its publication.

You don't care for it, apparently. I think that's quite clear.

[Galin]

Christopher Tolkien gave his opinion (Morgth's Ring) that his father was 'deeply committed' to publishing The Silmarillion along with The Lord of the Rings, which I would say is somewhat reflected in Tolkien almost changing publishers...

... CJRT adding that despair of publication at this time was (he thinks) a prime cause that so much work on updating the Silmarillion in the early fifties came to a halt (includes introducing Galadriel to the Silmarilion, a new character, just for example) -- noting also that this break proved to be destructive with respect to the larger picture and the Silmarillion remaining unfinished.

[FlimFlamSam]

Inziladun spoke: [You don't care for it, apparently. I think that's quite clear.]
Yeppers. Clear as crystal I think.
I've already said I was deeply immersed in it on both a reading level and scholarly level for nearly 30 years. Now--get it away from me!
Almost like a bad marriage that was once good.

Unfortunately there are no Lord of the Rings only message boards that deal strictly with Lord of the Rings and not any accessory books.

Galin spoke: [I would say is somewhat reflected in Tolkien almost changing publishers]
That worked out well!

Somewhat?
He burnt that bridge with glee didn't he? Then had to come crawling back and do some sketchy repair work, and do some boot-licking.

Letter #123 is hilarious. "Dilatory coils of Allen & Unwin". What a riot.

#124 is even funnier. "I cannot contemplate any drastic re-writing or compression." Then asking for the formal letter declining to publish for legal matters after declaring it a bloated (600,000 words and a scary thing to contemplate publishing at the time; in addition to the estimated 400,000 words of the then Silmarillion) monster unfit for children, which is what the publishers were expecting and made monetary payments for-- a sequel to The Hobbit and thereby hoping they would reject it by asking (nay demanding later) to have them publish both. Since that was a condition the new publisher was ready to accept, once Mr Tolkien finished the Silmarillion he wanted to go there instead. And STILL trying to pimp The Silmarillion [B]at the same time[/BI] to Allen & Unwin as the better alternative to publishing Lord of the Rings instead.
And to publish them both NOW!

#125 Reminding Allen & Unwin how long the book is and that he doubted readers would stick with it, aside from his close friends. Yeah, you don't want to publish that! Especially since it cannot be divided up artifically into smaller books for ease of publication. So sorry Charlie. Reject it! Reject it!
You want this nearly equally long and clearly unfinished book instead! You know, the one you already rejected (albeit through misunderstanding of the lay instead of prose).
But I understand if you want to back out now. Do it! Do it! Riot!

#127 Are you going to publish both or not? Yes or no? No! Oh happy days!

#133 After the new publisher backed out due to the very things Mr Tolkien used to get out of his Allen & Unwin contract.

To Allen & Unwin--"I have modified my views" (because I need money and you were at least willing to publish Lord of the Rings until I was a jerk and uncompromising in order to get out of the contract and go elsewhere). "Can anything be done to unlock the gates I have slammed myself?".
Oh BTW belated congratulations on your marriage that I never gave earlier because I was angry with you and hoped your slimy soul rotted in purgatory.
I uhhh had tennis elbow, yeah that was it. Call anytime! Hoping to hear from you!

[Galadriel55]

FlimFlam, think whatever you want of The Sil - even if you think it's not worth the paper it's printed on - but do not be so disrespectful towards JRRT. To paraphrase a line from LOTR, if you have nothing to say but ill, please keep silent.

[Nerwen]

FlimFlamSam–

Again, if you don't like it, don't read it. Again, why should you expect any writer's creative output and method of working to be tailored to you personally? I have seen this attitude in teenagers, of course, but most of them do, however, eventually grow up and realise that the world does not revolve around them. By your own account, however, you are a man of mature years– which quite honestly shocks me.

Also, there is the matter of your attitude towards other posters. While it is true that I have been pretty blunt, others have been much more polite and forbearing– and you've replied to them, too, in a tone of what I can only call dismissive contempt. You have made it quite clear that you have no respect for anyone else's opinion, and no interest in anything I should call discussion.

I have to ask: if, as you claim, you are not here to stir people and pick fights... then why?

[Morthoron]

FlimFlamSam types, FlimFlamSam opines, but FlimFlamSam seems incapable of using the quote button at the bottom right-hand corner of each post, thus irritating other posters by taking their quotations out of context and jumbling his hyperbole in with their points. Here's an example for FlimFlamSam to follow:

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

I've already said I was deeply immersed in it on both a reading level and scholarly level for nearly 30 years. Now--get it away from me!
Almost like a bad marriage that was once good.

How odd it is for someone to have allegedly studied an author's corpus on a "scholarly" level for three decades, but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material (which act as cosmological underpinnings for a grandly epochal subcreated mythos). One might think, on a strictly cynical level, that using the term "flim flam" as a nom de guerre is far too apt in this case to be coincidental.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Not so much difficult, unless you count all the other crap like Unfinished Tales, the HoME series, and everything else all lumped in with it, including Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Which many of us enjoy on this site, and you're setting yourself up to be greatly mocked.

Boring might be a better description. Creation myths make me retch.

Hey, I'm not a doctor, but I think I have a solution for this retching of yours. If creation myths make you retch, don't read them.

Yeah, and then throws a bunch of stuff into the revised version of Lord of the Rings like a pimp whoring out some aged, flabby, mascara and poundcake-make-up encrusted and frankly nasty piece of work hoping to make an extra shilling on a two-for-one deal.

I'm not sure which part of that abusive, partially misogynist statement to attack first. Did you have a bad experience with a prostitute then? Is that why you're in such a bad mood?

If they had published The Silmarillion then, he would have never written Lord of the Rings.

And...? Guess what, and I don't want to shock you, but - he's the author. He gets to decide what he writes.

In a nut-shell, without my bias; The Silmarillion was never finished because Mr. Tolkien never really wanted to finish it, and it shows when reading it.

Bias: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question.
Your prejudice against the Silm seems to be crowding your ability to fully consider anything anybody else says. You want to know why the Silm shows it was never finished - because Tolkien died while writing his myth, and it was put together after his death by his son. So in your mind, dying = not wanting to finish it. Okkaayyy....

Nothing in the FAQ about quoting regulations.

I think the mods assumed that anybody posting here would be able to understand that the quote tool was there for a reason - clearly, as you have proved, they vastly overestimated the intelligence of trolls/idiots (as you deny you are the first, you must be assumed that latter.)

I really just don't like it. I've spent nearly 30 years now wasting my time reading all the other books with meticulous care as they came out and have come to now LOATH The Silmarillion and attached materials in all forms except what is breifly alluded to in Lord of the Rings, and even then it's a stretch for me, simply due to past exposure to the other books.

I've heard of slow readers, but really? It took you 30 years to realize you didn't like a book? Wow. You must have read a word a day.

It's called criticism.

It's called this is a fansite (note the FAN part), and criticism does not necessitate harsh words, insults, or small minds that refuse to admit any opinion but there own is right.

I did say so. And your opinion was to say "absurd" and "ridiculous".

No, she said the manner in which you expressed yourself was absurd and ridiculous. Perhaps a class in reading comprehension is in order?

No, it was his lifelong hobby.
One he did not want to "finish".

Oh! I see, Tolkien should have quit his job and lived on the dole, just so that he could work on the books 24/7. He could even have sent his kids off to boot camp or something, so there would be no distractions. /sarcasm

He just plain liked to tinker, even with "completed" things.

And that is wrong because? It was his work - he was free to do whatever he wanted with it.

All right. So I'll dismiss the long-standing covert letter campaign to Tolkien groups and their heads (and fans) alluding to his Silmarillion and complaining that readers wouldn't like it according to the publisher; along with letters to the publisher itself.

Again, it's wrong for him to mention that he disagrees with the publisher because why?

[FlimFlamSam]

Morthoron spoke: [but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material.]
Suddenly? Nope.
Nor am I new here. Well, I haven't posted for about 10-12 years here or thereabouts, so I guess that does make me new or a newcomer in a manner of speaking.
The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet. They knew The Silmarillion had burned me out back then, and one of the reasons I left.

Not to toot any horns really--especially in this very ironic sense considering my now long-standing views--but it was using HOME and other texts in creating a cohesive Silmarillion for myself and mentioning in a discussion thread regarding the Lord of the Rings Epilogue the merging of texts that I had done that led to the idea of the Translation from the Elvish project here as a cooperative venture based on The Silmarillion merging I had already done. The idea of doing it again--in committee no less... no way.
In retrospect, I wish I had never done it. But what is done is done.

Since then, my gag-reflex towards those materials, including UT, and everything else not strictly Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit has taken irreversible hold. Inversely, my appreciation for those two books has increased.
In "tailoring to me", I do that myself on those texts, removing and altering as much of the offending material as I wish.

As for attacks against me from others... knock yourselves out.
I have attacked no poster. I have summarized my views in appropriate threads and paraphrased some letters and posted on fairly recent topics in others as digging up new threads months old serves little purpose. I have done some criticism of Mr Tolkien and his work. That seems to upset some people--in some cases deeply. Oh well.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

How odd it is for someone to have allegedly studied an author's corpus on a "scholarly" level for three decades, but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material (which act as cosmological underpinnings for a grandly epochal subcreated mythos). One might think, on a strictly cynical level, that using the term "flim flam" as a nom de guerre is far too apt in this case to be coincidental.

Originally Posted by Lady Brooke

I've heard of slow readers, but really? It took you 30 years to realize you didn't like a book? Wow. You must have read a word a day.

Indeed. I don't like to accuse anyone of outright lying, but I must say that I too am finding this "30 years of meticulous scholarship" business very hard to believe. I mean, all this sounds to me much more like somebody who has only recently dipped into Tolkien's non–LotR writings, and become infuriated that they didn't fit whatever his preconceptions were.

EDIT:X'd with Mr FlimFlam himself.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by FlimFlam

Morthoron spoke: [but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material.]
Suddenly? Nope.
Nor am I new here. Well, I haven't posted for about 10-12 years here or thereabouts, so I guess that does make me new or a newcomer in a manner of speaking.
The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet.

The first two mentioned are still around. Perhaps they can shed some light on this.

Originally Posted by FlimFlam

I have done some criticism of Mr Tolkien and his work. That seems to upset some people--in some cases deeply. Oh well.

Once again– it was not the bare fact of your criticising Tolkien's work, which you are welcome to do, it was the manner in which you did it.

[FlimFlamSam]

Nerwen spoke: [The first two mentioned are still around. Perhaps they can shed some light on this.]
Thank you for the information.

I have passed through fire and Tolkien internet death and have come back at the turn of the tide.
If it matters that much to you, grab your phial and call out "A Elbereth Gilthoniel!"

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by FlimFlam

Since then, my gag-reflex towards those materials, including UT, and everything else not strictly Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit has taken irreversible hold.

Then there's not much point your posting about it on a discussion forum, is there?

Originally Posted by FlimFlam

I have summarized my views in appropriate threads and paraphrased some letters and posted on fairly recent topics in others

Oh yes. I was actually about to ask if you were, er, let's say acquainted with a certain other recent member who showed much the same strange pattern of simultaneous trolling on some threads and "scholarly" posting on others. But then I remembered he was amenable to using the quote button.

[Nerwen]

Btw., I should have should have said "the first three"– lindil is also still active.

[Galin]

Saulotus

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Saulotus

Yeppers.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet. They knew The Silmarillion had burned me out back then, and one of the reasons I left.

And they might know you still, if you were posting under your original account. By the way, what was your forum handle then?

Originally Posted by Galin

Saulotus

I'd wondered about that. But I'd thought he was gone for good, for another reason having nothing to do with the forum.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And they might know you still, if you were posting under your original account. By the way, what was your forum handle then?

I'd wondered about that. But I'd thought he was gone for good, for another reason having nothing to do with the forum.

From a skim of the early threads, I'd say they cannot be other than the same person.

[FlimFlamSam]

Nerwen spoke: [lindil is also still active]
Thank you for the information again.

Inziladun spoke: [But I'd thought he was gone for good, for another reason having nothing to do with the forum.]
Well I did say one of the reasons. What reason did you believe? Answer in PM if you feel that more approriate--where most of this discussion should have been held anyway. I did get married around that time as well, so maybe that is what you are thinking of. Or not.

I needed the break--badly. Tolkien had truly burned me out.
In fact, I have been away from the internet completely for about 2 years or thereabouts now. Before that, it was at best infrequent visits. Messageboards (and their lure of sucking up so much time) being the chief culprit. I must say, there is a very suspicious and in some cases extreme bunch here though. That is not so encouraging.

I also said I wasn't trolling, nor attacking posters.
If I were, there were ample opportunities to take advantage of.

Inziladun spoke: [And they might know you still, if you were posting under your original account.]
Frankly, I couldn't remember what name I had back then, nor particularly cared. As for posting under it, I wasn't even looking to bring it up at all, but the rather lenghty circumstances of this thread seemed to require it as proof of both my intent and sincerity of reply.

Nerwen spoke: [Then there's not much point your posting about it on a discussion forum, is there?]
In a topic like: Why is the Silmarillion so difficult (to read)?
For me, now you know. I discussed it.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

I also said I wasn't trolling, nor attacking posters.
If I were, there were ample opportunities to take advantage of.

Inziladun spoke: [And they might know you still, if you were posting under your original account.]
Frankly, I couldn't remember what name I had back then, nor particularly cared. As for posting under it, I wasn't even looking to bring it up at all, but the rather lenghty circumstances of this thread seemed to require it as proof of both my intent and sincerity of reply.

Nerwen spoke: [Then there's not much point your posting about it on a discussion forum, is there?]
In a topic like: Why is the Silmarillion so difficult (to read)?
For me, now you know. I discussed it.

No you didn't, FlimFlam. You ranted hysterically, used offensive hyperbole of the kind guaranteed to get a hostile response, and treated other posters with contempt, even the polite ones. That's trolling, my friend. Simply saying you're not doing it changes nothing (all trolls deny it!). Unfortunately you're not, it seems, doing the fun, hoaxing kind of trolling, as I first thought, but rather the "gratuitously antagonise everybody just to get attention" kind.

And if by any chance you're not doing all this on purpose, then I say in all sincerity that I think you have some pretty serious problems with relating to other people.

EDIT: And just so we're on the same page– please be aware that I know you've come a-trollin' here before, under yet another identity– Bob. As if your "injured innocence" routine wasn't transparent enough anyway.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

Morthoron spoke: [but then suddenly become jaded on the subject or, rather, the foundational aspects of the material.]
Suddenly? Nope.
Nor am I new here. Well, I haven't posted for about 10-12 years here or thereabouts, so I guess that does make me new or a newcomer in a manner of speaking.
The people who knew me best back then; HerenIstarion, Mithadan, Tar-Elenion, Lindil and a few others are most likely no longer here and I have not checked on their status as of yet. They knew The Silmarillion had burned me out back then, and one of the reasons I left.

So, you held the same opinion a decade ago, but decided to reiterate the same unproductive rhetoric in case any of the newer posters missed it? From the tenor of your posts, it seems unlikely you are interested in discussion, so what is the point?

And how interesting that you forgot your original sign-in name, yet were able to recall four other members by name from 10-12 years ago. That sort of selective memory must be incredibly rare. One could say nonexistent. Rather like your posting etiquette (and you can quote me on it, if you can actually use the quote function).

[rriebsomer]

Hi. I'm new here. I have read the Silmarillion more than once. I think it's difficult for lots of reasons. Christopher Tolkien actually put it together from his father's writings posthumously. Professor Tolkien never really finished it.

It's very dark and tragic. It's a complex legendarium beginning with a creation story and a fall out of paradise. There is not as much dialogue.

Tolkien started writing this while in the trenches at the Battle of the Somme in WW I. I'm not sure that it's as mature a creation as the Lord of the Rings.

For me the most interesting story is Beren and Luthien. I found that by reading Unfinished Tales, certain gaps in the legendarium were filled in ie what happened with the necklace the dwarves made for Thingol after he received the Silmaril Beren wrested from the crown of Morgoth.

I think many readers find it pessimistic and would prefer the eucatastrophe of the Lord of the Rings, the happily ever after ending.

I read it because like Frodo I wanted to hear the elder tales. So now when I read the Lord of the Rings and there are references to the First Age, I know exactly what they are talking about.

This is a great question and a great topic for discussion. Thanks for introducing it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by rriebsomer

I think many readers find it pessimistic and would prefer the eucatastrophe of the Lord of the Rings, the happily ever after ending.

Well, I, for one, do not like "happily ever after" endings, and I don't think that LOTR ended that way. I recall reading a thread specifically about this, and the general opinion was that, as good as the overall situation seems to be, there is sadness and sorrow in it.

On the contrary, I rather like the "epicness" of The Sil's ending, and just everywhere in it. But the final words are priceless - how the seeds of lies will always bear fruit and etc.

I think you have a good point when you say that there isn't much dialogue, though. This might really be one of the reasons that people have trouble understanding it. If, in LOTR, you can understad a character based on his/her words, in The Sil you only have their actions.

I read it because like Frodo I wanted to hear the elder tales. So now when I read the Lord of the Rings and there are references to the First Age, I know exactly what they are talking about.

Same story here!

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by rriebsomer

Hi. I'm new here.

Welcome to the Downs

It's very dark and tragic. It's a complex legendarium beginning with a creation story and a fall out of paradise. There is not as much dialogue.

I do mourn the lack of dialogue, but then again, the book would cover five thousand pages or more if Tolkien had entertained that idea.

Tolkien started writing this while in the trenches at the Battle of the Somme in WW I. I'm not sure that it's as mature a creation as the Lord of the Rings.

It is younger, yes, but I find it infinitely more mature than LotR either way, aside from a few paragraphs/chapters.

For me the most interesting story is Beren and Luthien.

Really? I hated that one

I think many readers find it pessimistic and would prefer the eucatastrophe of the Lord of the Rings, the happily ever after ending.

I really do not think that LotR had a 'happily ever after' ending, and am duly grateful for that. It left a bittersweet aftertaste that I could digest more easily than a sickly sweet one.