Silmarillion - Chapter 21 - Of Túrin Turambar

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But the good thing about it is that Morgoth's Curse, like all his other deeds, ultimately turned against him. If it wasn't for the sac of Doriath and Gondolin, Earendil and Elwing would never have met! And then Earendil would never have gotten the Silmaril that helped him get to Aman. So Morgoth created the perfect circumstances for his own destruction.

Which goes back to Eru's admonition to Melkor early on, that all he did ultimately was in accord with the design of the One. But that's another thread.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ETA: I forgot to say this. "Fixed idea" - I think tht this could be said about many characters from the Narn. And it does relate to stubborness. But sometimes you can't tell one from the other. For example, when Morwen against all councel leaves Doriath to look for Turin, I think it's more of a fixed idea than simply "pig-headed-ness".

Well, since the definition of stubborn is "fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute", and pig-headed is defined as "stupidly obstinate; stubborn", Morwen was "pig-headed" anyway.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, since the definition of stubborn is "fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute", and pig-headed is defined as "stupidly obstinate; stubborn", Morwen was "pig-headed" anyway.

I was trying to differentiate between the concious kind of stubborn when you know exactly what you're doing, and the, erm, "mental" kind of stubborn, when you see the final destination and disregard all and all that is not in the direct path. It's not even an obsession anymore, it's a mania.

Originally Posted by Dictionary

FIXED IDEA: A frozen thought in the mind functioning as a "truth" that the person will automatically act on without thinking about it.

Originally Posted by Another Dictionary

FIXED IDEA: a persistent or obsessing idea, often delusional, that can, in extreme form, be a symptom of psychosis.

So, in other words, Morwen is going crazy. Gradually. (Well, I wasn't going to say that, and I don't want to say that, but it's the best way I can illustrate it to you.)

She's in her right mind when she sends Turin away but refuses to go herself. She's starting to crack up when she finds out in Doriath that Turin is gone. And it goes downhill from there. By the time she met Hurin, "her eyes were wild now, and full of fear", and all that is left in them is the light that she was known for. The only bit of sanity, perhaps? And all she can talk about it her life-long obsession, or, as I would prefer to call it, "fixed idea" - finding her family.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by G55

I was trying to differentiate between the concious kind of stubborn when you know exactly what you're doing, and the, erm, "mental" kind of stubborn, when you see the final destination and disregard all and all that is not in the direct path. It's not even an obsession anymore, it's a mania.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary
FIXED IDEA: A frozen thought in the mind functioning as a "truth" that the person will automatically act on without thinking about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Dictionary
FIXED IDEA: a persistent or obsessing idea, often delusional, that can, in extreme form, be a symptom of psychosis.
So, in other words, Morwen is going crazy. Gradually. (Well, I wasn't going to say that, and I don't want to say that, but it's the best way I can illustrate it to you.)

Hmmn. I'm going to repeat here what I've said on another thread about another character entirely: you need to be very careful about "diagnosing" fictional characters. I hope I won't sound too mean if I point out that it often, as in this case, involves a type of logical fallacy.

Yes, there are people in Tolkien's work who are clearly round the bend, and there are others who crack and end up that way. As a rule-of-thumb, though, I think you can generally assume that what a person says and does is simply an expression of his or her personality.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. I'm going to repeat here what I've said on another thread about another character entirely: you need to be very careful about "diagnosing" fictional characters. I hope I won't sound too mean if I point out that it often, as in this case, involves a type of logical fallacy.

Yeah, that's true. Which is one of the reasons I said that I don't want to put it that way. And the reason I put "fixed idea" in quotation marks. I still think that Morwen starts acting stubborn because of her "mania" more than logical decisions at some point. (Bck in Dor-lomin, she made a decision to send turin away and remain herself. But going to Nargothrond was half a "mania" that she followed.)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Would you care to elaborate? Do you mean there is something in the depiction of Morwen that involves his own personal relationship with his mother? Or do you mean something more general about his ideas concerning pride?

I hadn't thought very deeply about it. The idea came to me as an afterthought at the end of my post. I think it's more likely that Tolkien identified a certain tendency in that direction in himself, although he was quick to deny it. This would explain his preoccupation with tollkühn, and his use of its anglicised form Rashbold in the Notion Club material at least twice (although it should always be noted that he was forever using translations of or punning references to his name in other languages). Certainly I detect an uncertainty at several points in his literary career over the rightness from a Catholic perspective of his continued sub-creation, which he may have sometimes seen as presumption. Such second-guessing tempts fate to say the least, so I preferred to leave the question open to suggestions. It seems unlikely to me, though, that Morwen embodies Tolkien's opinion of his own mother. If that were the case I would expect far more sympathetic a character, to judge by the references he makes to his parents in his published letters.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A quick question - there's so much material to discuss in this chapter, plus the further versions of the story - would you all like to continue for the next week? If all's been said, I'll go on to the next chapter as planned tomorrow.

[Bêthberry]

Time now only for an announcement rather than a response to anything, which will come later.

I've just noticed there's an article with an interesting title in the current issue of Mythlore that could touch on discussion here. If anyone subscribes, perhaps said Downer could provide a summary or review?

Article is titled "Turin and Aragorn: Embracing and Evading Fate", by Janet Brennan Croft.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

I hadn't thought very deeply about it. The idea came to me as an afterthought at the end of my post. I think it's more likely that Tolkien identified a certain tendency in that direction in himself, although he was quick to deny it. This would explain his preoccupation with tollkühn, and his use of its anglicised form Rashbold in the Notion Club material at least twice (although it should always be noted that he was forever using translations of or punning references to his name in other languages). Certainly I detect an uncertainty at several points in his literary career over the rightness from a Catholic perspective of his continued sub-creation, which he may have sometimes seen as presumption. Such second-guessing tempts fate to say the least, so I preferred to leave the question open to suggestions. It seems unlikely to me, though, that Morwen embodies Tolkien's opinion of his own mother. If that were the case I would expect far more sympathetic a character, to judge by the references he makes to his parents in his published letters.

I would think that as well, about Morwen, although her pride and stubbornness is probably as strong as her son's and the story of multiple homes or residences and the dependence on others do have some echo in Tolkien's own life. Tolkien's actions "against willful pride, against action without counsel, against unilateral decisions"--as you wrote in the earlier post--strike me as being more significant, as it seems to me that so much of what he saw in his life came up against those very traits, in his personal life, in his professional life, and of course in the terrible historical events which he lived through in his life.

Originally Posted by Aiwnedil

To touch on another point that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread yet, one of the interesting things about the Turin saga (and there are lots of interesting things about it) is that it is a rare case where Tolkien, though somewhat grudgingly and disapprovingly, seems to have endorsed the game of 'source-hunting' - that is, of looking for literary or mythological antecedents to his stories and characters. In his letter to Milton Waldman he even names some sources himself:

It seems that the character whose story Tolkien spent the most time working on was also perhaps (in a sense) Tolkien's least original character. And yet, in a different sense, Turin is undeniably an original character, notwithstanding his explicit connection with those three sources. Here we have one of the best examples of Tolkien's ability to take myths and ancient stories and not simply to rework them or reinterpret them, but to use them as building blocks (and very solid building blocks they are) in the creation of something altogether new.

This passage from Tolkien's letter to Waldman is very interesting, particularly in light of what Tolkien has to say about sources in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.
Here's some of his thoughts from the essay on the medieval story:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight"

For it belongs to that literary kind which has deep roots in the past, deeper even than its author was aware. It is made of tales often told before and elsewhere, and of elements that derive from remote times, beyond the vision or awareness of the poet: like Beowulf, or some of Shakespeare's major plays, such as King Lear or Hamlet.

It is an interesting question: what is this flavour, this atmosphere, this virtue that such rooted works have, . . . . I am not concerned at this moment with research into the origins of the tale or its details, or into the question of precisely in what form these reached the author of this poem, before he set to work on it. I wish to speak of his handling of the matter . . . the movement of his mind, as he wrote and . . . rewrote the story, until it had the form that has come down to us. . . . His story is not about those old things, but it receives part of its life, its vividness, its tension from them. That is the way with the greater fairy-stories--of which this is one.

Given how closely some of his lines echo the Kalevala (particularly the lines where Turin addresses his sword), I would think that Tolkien in his letter might be attempting to minimise his debt or dismiss the significance of it. It would be ineresting to compare the dates of composition of the Gawain essay and the letter to Waldman.