Lembas: Part of a Balanced, Evil-free Diet

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Gollum hates all things good. Elvish things are "very good", if you forgive the phrasing. He hates them even more than the Sun. He couldnt stand the rope and spat out the lembas.

Interestingly, Gollum shunned the lembas and was burned by the rope without foreknowledge of where they'd come from. So, it couldn't have been a mere hatred of "good" that caused his reactions. I wonder if it wasn't the lasting influence of the Ring, beyond his own personality, that had a hand in that. The Negative tends to be more affected by the Positive than vice-versa. For instance, Merry and Pippin could drink the orc-draught, disgusting though it was, but could Orcs have drunk miruvor?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think that the bread, having some elven "magic" in it (as is made obvious by the amount of energy it gives to the eater), would help Smeagol get rid of the Gollum side. But if it was forced into his mouth and rammed into his throat, all it would do is build up his hatered for all. He had to take it himeslf, and he wasn't ready for that yet, as Frodo points out.

I'm leaning toward that also; that lembas might have empowered the Sméagol persona and strengthened it against the Gollum side. But for how long? And how well?

Originally Posted by blantyr

It might also be a magical allergy. Gollum might react poorly to the boats the Fellowship was given, the Phial of Galadriel, or any other product of elven craft where the maker has put something extra in the making.

Then again, Gollum did touch one of the boats with no apparent effect.

A long whitish hand could be dimly seen as it shot out and grabbed the gunwale; two pale lamplike eyes shone coldly as they peered inside, and then they lifted and gazed up at Frodo on the eyot.

FOTR The Great River

Originally Posted by blantyr

I could only attribute it to corruption caused by the Ring. While perhaps it might have been possible to recover from such an effect after having borne the Ring so long, I would be dubious.

I can't see lembas ultimately allowing Gollum the strength to completely conquer the Gollum personality indefinitely. After all, that persona was basically the Ring itself, and lembas did not prevent the Ring from mastering Frodo when it came down to it. And Frodo was from the start much more inclined toward "good" than Sméagol ever was.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Interestingly, Gollum shunned the lembas and was burned by the rope without foreknowledge of where they'd come from. So, it couldn't have been a mere hatred of "good" that caused his reactions. I wonder if it wasn't the lasting influence of the Ring, beyond his own personality, that had a hand in that.

What I meant is what blantyr well summed up with "alergies". He isnt conciously aware of it, but the "better" a thing is, the more "allergic" he is to it.

And I think that his personality and the influence of the Ring are very intertwined. His personality was affected as part of the "lasting influence".

The Negative tends to be more affected by the Positive than vice-versa. For instance, Merry and Pippin could drink the orc-draught, disgusting though it was, but could Orcs have drunk miruvor?

Miruvor is too precious a drink to give to orcs as an experiment.

But, really, I think you're right here for the most part. The only counter-thing I can think of is the Nazgul. A lot of men seemed to be absolutely helpless when they came. But on the other hand, they collectively found the strength to stand and fight. In that same battle, we are told that orcs fled from Aragorn because of Anduril and just who he was. They could not find the strength.

This probably comes from the fact that the "goodies" have all at stake - they fight not only for their lives, but for their land, their kin, their nation, country, revenge, you name it. They have motivation beyond saving their own skins. The "baddies" largely care about themselves only. An exception could be the Dunlendings that were misled into believing that they should fight for revenge.

Gollum's goodie side of him was able to find the strength of mind and will to stand the Sun when it was needed, to walk into Lorien (al all!), and to overcome those "hate"s that he was aware of. He could not overcome his "alergy" to the Elven rope and lembas because he was not read for such a great callenge yet. He did not have sufficient motivation and understanding.

[Mithalwen]

I hesitate to bring this up because I don't want to trigger one of those arguments but I am going to mention the pachyderm I at least can see lurking in the corner trying despite its bulk to keep a low profile.

Yes it is the C word..... Catholicism. Not a direct correlation obviously but it seems to me that there is something sacramental about the lembas. It is the vehicle spiritual as well as physical benefits - a kind of grace. The mass is more central to Catholic observance than say the Anglicanism into which Tolkien was born,
I need to check references and try to be more coherenct when I have slept but I think this is a factor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Yes it is the C word..... Catholicism. Not a direct correlation obviously but it seems to me that there is something sacramental about the lembas. It is the vehicle spiritual as well as physical benefits - a kind of grace. The mass is more central to Catholic observance than say the Anglicanism into which Tolkien was born

I've seen it argued before that there are Eucharistic overtones that may be associated with lembas. I'm not sure about that, though. If a resemblance exists, I think it is slight.

Lembas was intended as a food product, primarily. There was no ritual for its use, and no restriction of that use, beyond the fact that its making was a secret of the Elves, and they did not ordinarily give it to those of other races.

The Eucharist is highly ritualized in Catholicism, and to a lesser extent in Protestant denominations. The bread and wine is not consumed for any nutritional value, but "in remembrance" of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
It is a symbolic act, and those uninstructed in the ritual, and ignorant of the meaning behind it, derive nothing from eating and drinking the same things as the celebrants of the Mass.

Lembas, though, required no such instruction. The Fellowship, with the exception of Legolas (and maybe Aragorn), knew nothing about its origin or making. Yet, they still derived full benefit from it. In fact, Frodo and Sam lived on it alone after their escape from the Tower of Cirith Ungol. It nourished the body, as well as the soul.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It's interesting that Tolkien acknowledges but does not explicitly confirm one critic's equation of Lembas with the viaticum.

Another [critic] saw in waybread (lembas)=viaticum and the reference to its feeding of the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the lesser things of a fairy-story.)

Letters #213 (25 October 1958)

I'd certainly hesitate to equate Lembas with the viaticum, although it's not too much of a stretch to compare it with the communion host. There is something more to waybread than simple nutrition, though.

Originally Posted by JRRT

[Lembas] also has a much larger significance , of what one might hesitatingly call a 'religious' kind. This becomes later apparent, especially in the chapter 'Mount Doom' (III, 213 and subsequently).

Letters #210 (June 1958)

By this second comment, I assume Tolkien to mean that there is a spiritual element to the nourishment provided by the elven waybread; one which has a universally beneficial effect. There is no evidence that the elven rope or the lembas actually injure Sméagol, but he finds them hard to endure. I think that Gollum's reaction is intended to be typical of the fallen characters - those furthest from the service of the Valar. Perhaps the message is intentional that the further one progresses into evil the more distasteful become the means and products of good, until eventually they become impossible to endure. This suggests how great an effort of will it would take for Sméagol to be healed: he finds those things that will cure him painful to touch. When we compare LR to Carcharoth's swallowing of the Silmaril in the Silmarillion, we can see a more extreme example of the same process: evil things are burned by the most wholesome objects, although Sméagol is not so far gone that he is physically burned by the painful touch of elven artifacts.

Frodo's insight does not have to be conferred by the Ring. Of the hobbits he is the eldest, best educated and most thoughtful, so it would be natural that he would come to an understanding of Sméagol's plight with or without the influence he could feel from the Ring. I'm not suggesting for a moment that there wasn't a particular affinity between the two that stemmed from their bearing of the Ring, but it's not necessary for an understanding of his comments under discussion.

[Aiwendil]

There's a very brief but interesting text concerning lembas - called, appropriately enough, 'Of Lembas' - in HoMe XII (it's the second of two parts in the short 'Dangweth Pengolodh').

Here it is said that lembas was not invented by the Elves, but was given to them by the Valar at the beginning of their Great Journey from Middle-Earth to Aman. It was made 'of a kind of corn which Yavanna brought forth in the fields of Aman'. This corn was later grown by the Elves in Middle-earth, but its origin in the 'Blessed Realm' would seem to at least partially explain its peculiar power. And perhaps most intriguingly, it is said here that if mortals were to eat too much of the bread they would become weary of their mortality and long for the fields of Aman. For this reason, the Valar commanded that the Elves not share it with Men except at great need.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

There is no evidence that the elven rope or the lembas actually injure Sméagol, but he finds them hard to endure. I think that Gollum's reaction is intended to be typical of the fallen characters - those furthest from the service of the Valar. Perhaps the message is intentional that the further one progresses into evil the more distasteful become the means and products of good, until eventually they become impossible to endure.

Supporting that idea, there's Frodo's observation to Sam about the reaction of the Cirith Ungol orcs to the lembas.

'I've found my food-bag among some rags on the floor. They've rummaged it, of course. But I guess they disliked the very look and smell of the lembas, worse than Gollum did.

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

This suggests how great an effort of will it would take for Sméagol to be healed: he finds those things that will cure him painful to touch. When we compare LR to Carcharoth's swallowing of the Silmaril in the Silmarillion, we can see a more extreme example of the same process: evil things are burned by the most wholesome objects, although Sméagol is not so far gone that he is physically burned by the painful touch of elven artifacts.

I don't have all the books at hand, but I seem to remember at some point an orc, (maybe Uglúk?) described as throwing something (the Barrow-blades carried by Merry and Pippin, perhaps) away "as if they burned him". There's probably something metaphysical to be said about the apparent fact that evil is hurt by the mere touch of "good" objects, but the reverse is not generally true.

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

Frodo's insight does not have to be conferred by the Ring. Of the hobbits he is the eldest, best educated and most thoughtful, so it would be natural that he would come to an understanding of Sméagol's plight with or without the influence he could feel from the Ring.

Perhaps. The exchange there between the two just to me has the feel of something beyond intellectual understanding.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Here it is said that lembas was not invented by the Elves, but was given to them by the Valar at the beginning of their Great Journey from Middle-Earth to Aman. It was made 'of a kind of corn which Yavanna brought forth in the fields of Aman'. This corn was later grown by the Elves in Middle-earth, but its origin in the 'Blessed Realm' would seem to at least partially explain its peculiar power. And perhaps most intriguingly, it is said here that if mortals were to eat too much of the bread they would become weary of their mortality and long for the fields of Aman. For this reason, the Valar commanded that the Elves not share it with Men except at great need.

I've read that part of HOME before, though I don't own the book.

Notably, I think, the Fellowship is not given any sort of restriction on the use of the lembas. As a matter of fact, eating more is depicted as beneficial, or at least not harmful, in LOTR.

Referencing the initial passage I noted in the initial post in this thread, it was said that:

The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain down to die. It did not satisfy desire, and and at times Sam's mind was filled with the memories of food, and the longing for simple bread and meats. And yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods.

The "potency increased", but that is not there presented as a negative aspect.