Resurrection of Haudh-En-Ndengin thread "Rivendell or Lothlorien"

[FlimFlamSam]

mark12_30 spoke: How had they dwindled or grown from age to age? Any quotes or ideas saying why?

Not much is known really. The author didn't give much in specifics.
Dwindled is certain however on both fronts.

There are some curious tidbits about Lothlorien though.

In virtually all texts Lothlorien is a divided community. Also, not all the Lothlorien elves were tree-dwellers. Legolas states that the elves of Lorien did not delve under the ground or build forts of stone before the Shadow came.
Meaning they did so afterwards.
This is c.1000 or thereabouts.

Curiously, Haldir comments on halflings and their evil nature. He mentions not having heard of halflings for many years, but that these halflings (in the Fellowship) did not look evil, so persumably these are the tales he knows of concerning halflings from the past--that they are an evil race (in looks originally? or perhaps both in looks and demeanor?).

The Stoors of Gladden would be the obvious source for these tales, but perhaps not wholly. There may be some ancient connection with the Pukel Wild-men afterall. Halflings have dwelt in the south (Oliphaunt tales and other remnants of memory) and is the likely origin point for the halflings in the Anduin valley since these tales survive into lore in the Shire.

The old elf tales of evil halflings perhaps may have also come from their southward connections--the old and now largely abandoned havens in the Belfalas region, which were also population centers for Lothlorien elves as was Ithilien itself. Legolas mentions that elves dwelt there once and that the land had not completely forgotten them.

Haldir also lets the readers know that the Galadrim (the tree-dwellers) dwell in the heart of the forest (or elvendom), but that pockets of other Lorien elves are sundered from the Galadrim--in the north of Lothlorien specifically, but presumably elsewhere. These may be the elves who delved underground or built forts for defense against the Shadow that Legolas refers to.

So the population information of Lothlorien elves may be slightly skewed.

Rivendell is another matter, as many of the elves travel in wandering companies from Mithlond and Rivendell back and forth and are closely allied and seemingly confer frequently. The wandering companies from Mithlond also seem to have a capable network of communication, possibly using animals. Messages came to Bombadil fast enough as he seems to have little interaction with the world at large except for the occasional visit to hobbit lands and talking to animals and trees.

Noldor elves also apparently held the three elf towers and the palantir there, but no information is known on population or if it consists only of elves of Mithlond. Rivendell elves may also dwell there. Gildor visits Rivendell often enough, and is probably where he last saw Bilbo.

All that is assured is that the elves are much dwindled in numbers.

Which was greater? As per the original thread--hard to say.
Lothlorien most likely as it had to defend itself on at least active two fronts (Dol Guldur and Moria) for many, many years. Possibly a third front from the goblins of the north in addition.
You don't do that sucessfully unless you have some quality strength.

Rivendell seems to be a much more peaceful place and had little communication with Lothlorien. Afterall, Haldir only knew of a vague rumor concerning the havens beyond the land of the halflings, so few--if any--elves took sail from there, and the old south havens are seldom used, if at all, at the time of the war of the ring.
Faramir remarks that it has been some time since elves were seen in Gondor.
The Rivendell elves regularly use the havens of Mithlond to sail away, depleting their numbers even further.

That help any?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

(...) Also, not all the Lothlorien elves were tree-dwellers. Legolas states that the elves of Lorien did not delve under the ground or build forts of stone before the Shadow came. Meaning they did so afterwards. This is c.1000 or thereabouts.

I agree not all the Galadhrim need have been Tree dwellers, but I don't think they began delving underground or building forts of stone after the Shadow arrived. Concerning Thranduil's folk: 'In fact the subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground and in the branches.' The Hobbit

However when the Shadow came Thranduil did delve in the ground 'like a Dwarf' (although in his mind, like Thingol or Finrod I would say) and seek protection with stone. The reader is already aware of Thranduil's halls, or at least The Hobbit was already on bookshelves, and I think Legolas is basically referring to what he knows, based on his own experience, versus what he yet does not know. After Nimrodel is said to live in a house built in a tree: '... for that was the custom of the Elves of Lorien, to dwell in the trees, and maybe it is so still. Therefore they are called the Galadhrim, the Tree-people. Deep in their forest the trees are very great. The people of the woods did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came.'

And 'maybe' it is so still, but in any case the 'people of the woods' did not delve in the ground like Dwarves unless need drove them -- and so maybe the Galadhrim have as well -- but at this point he has yet to find out for sure -- and he does know that deep in the forest the trees are very great, anticipating the 'city' of trees that the reader will soon encounter.

In short: maybe they still live in trees, but in any case the Silvan folk didn't live underground before the Shadow came. And I think this interpretation can be somewhat supported by the drafts. In an outline published in Lothlorien (Treason of Isengard):

'Make for Lothlorien. Legolas' description The Wood is in winter (...) They lived in houses in trees before the darkling world drove them underground.'

So at first this is a fact. Christopher Tolkien notes

'At this point, then, my father conceived of the Elves of Lothlorien as dwelling underground, like the Elves of Mirkwood. CF. Legolas' later words on p. 255: 'It is said that Linglorel had a house built in the branches of a tree, for that was the manner of the Elves of Lorien, and may be yet (...) And our people [i.e. the Elves of Mirkwood] did not delve in the ground or build fastnesses before the Shadow came.'

But it enters that Legolas does not truly know the Galadhrim's response to the Shadow, and thus he can only note what his people have done. I think this meaning essentially remained, despite the change of 'our people' to the people of the woods.

Gimli responds that in these latter days, a dwelling in trees might be thought safer than sitting on the ground, and so in The Lord of the Rings it is revealed to the reader that the Galadhrim are still the Galadhrim, as they have a fortress in their city of trees, not underground as in Mirkwood, and they live in flets -- and if not all of the Galadhrim, others can still retreat behind the walls where Galadriel and Celeborn reside -- just as the Tawarwaith of Mirkwood can leave their houses and huts to find safety in Thranduil's halls.

[Rumil]

Good points above,

certainly Middle Earth is ridiculously sparsely populated, as far as we're aware. Basically the Prof was no Ecologist, Economist nor Geographer!

I think that Haldir is refering to Legolas and the Mirkwood elves as 'our Northern kin' so don't see this as an indication of a sundered Lorien. Likewise no evil Halflings!

Yes I overstated the relationship of the two Forests as 'Allies', but, hooom, neither Treebeard nor Celeborn are what you'd call 'hasty' with their information. The Ents did indeed act as allies of Lothlorien (and Rohan of course) in destroying the orcish army from Dol Guldur out on the Wold after it had been repelled from Laurelindorenan. Whether this was in cahoots with C&G or completely independently is not stated.