Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[Aiwendil]

BL-EX-06: I'll see if I can come up with anything more suitable here as well.

BL-EX-10: At least we agree that a regular line of eight syllables is something to strive for when we can. Let me take this line by line.

<GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:

This line is already long, so I think it would be better to use 'Finrod' than 'Felagund' and save a syllable. With that substitution, we then have a nine-syllable line that is regular except for an extra unaccented syllable in the third foot.

'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,

Although we have so far agreed on this line, it is not terribly good. The first foot is missing the initial weak stress (which is common and not problematic), but we sneak in two extra syllables in the final foot. Indeed, this line could as easily be parsed as having five feet.

It occurs to me that we could probably do better by making the first two lines:

But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:

And then begin the quote on the next line. This gives both lines the regular, eight syllable pattern: x/ x/ x/ x/ (where x is an unaccented and / an accented syllable).

by the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,

I agree that the unedited full line 'by the sight that is given me in this hour' is too long - not because it adds any extra feet but because it has an extra unstressed syllable in each of the first three feet: xx/ xx/ xx/ x/ (if you parse 'hour' as one syllable). Removing 'that is' makes the second foot too short while leaving the first and third too long: xx/ / xx/ x/. But as I consider this more, it strikes me that it parses more naturally as xx/ /x x/ x/. That is, that the second foot has been made a trochee instead of an iamb, a variation well within the idiom. So I think we should take your line here.

{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power

This line is regular and unproblematic.

{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain

Another good line (the first foot lacks a weak stress, but that is perfectly fine).

before the End; for all in vain

My earlier suggestion, without the 'for', left a third foot without a weak stress, which is not quite as acceptable as a first foot without a weak stress but still not terrible. Your suggestion is fine, though, and certainly improves the rhythm. But I think more natural might be:

before the End; yea, all in vain

you swore. And this that we now seek

Nice and regular.

shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,

I think this line is fine, even though it has an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: x/ x/ xx/ x/.

but never to your hands shall it fall.

Here I strongly prefer not to add the 'it'; the line 'but never to your hands shall fall' is perfectly regular, with eight syllables.

Nay, your oath shall devour you all,

Even though this line has exactly eight syllables, it is far from regular: / x/ xx/ x/, if you pronounce 'devour' as two syllables. To my ear, 'devour' can pass as either two or three syllables, and my line, which omitted the 'you', was written with the three-syllable pronunciation in mind. But as I think about it, I suspect Tolkien would have parsed it with two syllables - in which case, your line is probably better.

the sons of Fëanor;{, and deliver} to other {keeping} care

This line, depending on how you say it, either sneaks an extra two syllables into the second foot, x/ x/xx x/ x/, or ends up with an extra foot, x/ x/ x/ x/ x/, neither of which is good. My proposal was:

Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care

This reverses the stresses of the first foot and puts an extra unstressed syllable in the third foot: /x x/ xx/ x/. I think on the whole I prefer this.

Lúthien’s{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}it will bear.'

I would naturally read this as /xx /x /x /, though I suppose one could more charitably parse it as /x x/ x/ x/. My line was 'Luthien's great bride-price bear', which is / x/ x/ x/. I think better than either of those choices would be:

shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'

Which is a regular eight syllable line.

So my proposal now is:

<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell:
'By the sight{ that is} given me in this hour,
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come indeed ‘neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

That looks much improved to me.

[Findegil]

BL-EX-10: Yes, that is much improved. We will take it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Sorry for the long delay.

I have been thinking a lot about Boldog and the two passages BL-SL-05 and BL-SL-07. I agree in principle on two points: first, that even though the motif of Morgoth's desire to capture Luthien was removed, there is no need to remove the skirmish with Boldog, and second, that it is still possible for Morgoth to hear of Luthien's wanderings and ponder Thingol's purpose.

So I think you're right about BL-SL-07 and I was being over-zealous in my suggestion. But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien?

I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution.

One other thing that's been knocking around in my head a bit is whether the note on Boldog from 'Myths Transformed' might have any implications for his role here. In MT, Tolkien first gives 'Boldog' as an example of an Orc whoe lived far longer than the lifespan of Men, but then speculates that 'Boldog' might in fact be a title or the name of an order of Maiar inferior to Balrogs. At first I thought that the first possibility (that Boldog was an Orc-captain who reappears many times over the centuries of the First Age) would preclude his being slain in the fight. But of course, it's possible that this is the last of those appearances. So in the end, I think the note doesn't oblige us to make any changes here.

BL-RG-40: Yes, my line is only seven syllables; the first foot is missing a weak syllable. I have tried to come up with a better line, but I can't. Note that something like this:

[Sauron's heralds]. What hast thou brought?

. . . is not, I think, any better, since the first two feet have the weak and strong stresses reversed. But I could live with either.

BL-SL-08: I'm still not quite convinced that 'magic' is unsuitable here, but I suppose we can err on the side of caution and use 'power'.

[Findegil]

First the easier issues:
BL-RG-40: I agree that 'Saurons' heralds' is also not very good. What about:

{Thu's messengers}[Gorthaur's bats]. What hast thou brought,

But reading this again I see that I my have a wrong pronauciation of 'Gor-THAU-r's BATS.' Which most likley is realy 'GOR-thaur's BATS.' But then it is not better than your suggestion.

BL-EX-11.5: Reading more in the Lay I found the word 'magic' so often that it is impossible to remove it everywere. That means it can stand here as well.

BL-SL_05:

I have to admit, I've even been wondering now and then whether it's possible that Boldog's objective of capturing Luthien was merely omitted from later sources rather than rejected. But in the end it's best to err on the side of caution.

It might be that Tolkien created a time line problem here. The story in the Lay based on Synopsis V is:

- Beren and Felagund leave Nargothrond
- At the 'turn of summer' Melain tells Lúthien of Berens imprisonment by Sauron (this must be a forsight in any case)
- At 'autumn's wild beginning' Felagund and Beren disguise as Orcs
- Luthien's flight from Doriath
- Morogth hears of here wandering and sents Boldog
- Luthien is captured in Nargothrond
- Thingol prepares an attack on Nargothrond
- Thingol meets Boldogs war-band and crashes it
- Beren and Felagund before Sauron

It did not came to my mind reading the Lay that it had taken Beren and Felagund so long to wander from the source of Narog to the Pass of Sirion. Anyhow it is safest to remove the special mission of Boldog, as we already agreed and it could be that we have found one good reason why Tolkien did remove it.

But I still have reservations about BL-SL-05. With the removal of Morgoth's desire for Luthien, it seems very strange for Sauron to mention her at all here. In the original, when he imagines Morgoth 'crushing a maiden in his hoard', he is clearly envisioning the intended outcome of Boldog's attack. But if Boldog's attack was just an ordinary border-skirmish, why does Sauron suddenly start talking about Luthien?

We know that Morgoth heard of Luthiens wandering, so why shouldn't Sauron have heard? And since he is talking about a border skirmish at Doriath why not mention her? We also hear in Sil77 that Sauron and Morgoth have some interest in her:

But Lúthien heard his answering voice, and she sang then a song of greater power. The wolves howled, and the isle trembled. Sauron stood in the high tower, wrapped in his black thought ;but he smiled hearing her voice, for he knew that it was the daughter of Melian. The fame of the beauty of Lúthien and the wonder of her song had long gone forth from Doriath; and he thought to make her captive and hand her over to the power of Morgoth, for his reward would be great.

Beside that Sauron is suspicious about them and he tries to teas them to some worng move. Which is exactly what the mention of Luthien did provoke.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.

BL-RG-40:

But reading this again I see that I my have a wrong pronauciation of 'Gor-THAU-r's BATS.' Which most likley is realy 'GOR-thaur's BATS.' But then it is not better than your suggestion.

Ah, I see the confusion. I had indeed assumed the stress is on the first syllable in 'Gorthaur'. And this is the pronunciation that Encyclopedia of Arda gives, for what that's worth.

So, I think that in terms of stress and syllable-count, 'Sauron' and 'Gorthaur' are identical.

BL-SL-05:

We know that Morgoth heard of Luthiens wandering, so why shouldn't Sauron have heard? And since he is talking about a border skirmish at Doriath why not mention her?

It still seems a little awkward to me. I suppose that a train of thought leading from a skirmish on the border of Thingol's realm to Thingol's daughter makes some sense. But what still seems out of place then is:

Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,

In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard. What about:

'Boldog, I heard, was lately slain
warring on the borders of that domain
where Robber Thingol and outlaw folk
cringe and crawl beneath elm and oak
in drear Doriath. Heard ye not then
of that pretty fay, of Lúthien?
BL-SL-05 {Her body is fair, very white and fair.
Morgoth would possess her in his lair.
Boldog he sent, but Boldog was slain:
strange ye were not in Boldog's train.}
Fierce is your chief, his frown is grim.
Little Lúthien! What troubles him?
{Why laughs he not to think of his lord
crushing a maiden in his hoard,
that foul should be what once was clean,
that dark should be where light has been?}

Thus we remove the non sequitur but retain the mention of Luthien as a way of eliciting a reaction from Beren.

Also, I think BL-EX-10 can in fact be improved slightly further with:

<GA But Finrod, ere he bade farewell,
{But this I say}spoke thus to Celegorm the fell,
by{ the} sight{ that is given me} allowed him in {this} that hour:
{that}By neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain the Silmarils ever unto world's end.}their Jewels regain
before the End; yea, all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall come {indeed} from 'neath the triple peak,
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour you all,
Fëanor's sons, and {deliver} to other {keeping} care
shall Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>

This takes ever so slightly more liberty with the text from GA but makes the third and eighth lines of the section better metrically.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

Don't know if you're still around at all, Findegil, but here are my latest thoughts on unresolved points.

Yes, I am still around and will gladdly any progress we make.

BL-RG-40: We will stay with Sauron then.

BL-SL-05: Posted by Aiwendil:

In the original, he has just been talking about Boldog's mission to bring Luthien to Morgoth. But in our proposed version, no one has yet said anything about her being in Morgoth's hoard.

True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.

BL-EX-10: Agreed.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Hi, Findegil! Excellent to see you.

True, but then what does the mention of Lúthien mean at all? It is the interest of Morgoth in Lúthien that we need to tease Beren.
I may be do not rightly understand what is the non sequitar that does trouble you.

As I see it, in the original, the logic of the passage is this:

1. Sauron mentions Boldog's mission to capture Luthien and bring her to Morgoth.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly to this.
3. Sauron asks why he reacts thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But what we have is now:

1. Sauron mentions the skirmish on the border of Doriath, which leads him to mention Luthien.
2. (It is implied that) Beren reacts visibly.
3. Sauron asks why he should react thus to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive.

But in the latter case, what Sauron says in 3 makes no sense. No one has mentioned the idea of Luthien being Morgoth's captive, so why would Sauron think that this is what Beren is reacting to?

With my last proposal, the idea I had in mind was that Beren is no longer reacting explicitly to the thought of Luthien as Morgoth's captive. Rather, he's simply visibly affected by the mention of the name Luthien, particularly coming from Sauron; and Sauron notices his reaction.

[Elvellon]

BL-RG-05: Why not just make it past tense?

for Morgoth {shall}[was] BL-RG-05{by Gods}[by Valar] BL-SL-02{be} wrought
of steel and torment. Names she sought,