Orcs... were elves?

[alatar]

When you read the Sil, with its pages of pages of kinslayings between the elves, culminating with the assault by the evil sons of Feanor on the Havens of Sirion, it's no great leap to think that orcs were once elves.

[Galin]

And looking at the history of Men...

[alatar]

What caught my eye is the statement about the elves not forgetting that Men fought on the side of Melkor during the War of Wrath. Okay, so the elves didn't, but they had kin blood on their hands, and the sons of Feanor - Maedhros and Maglor - slew Eönwë's guards when they retook the Silmarils.

What a gem of a race...

[Galin]

Men never slew Men?


There are plenty of things that can catch your eye in the history of Men, so in my opinion the argument that you are (seemingly) trying to imply here really doesn't go any further than focusing on one side of the coin. When Tolkien considered that Men were the stock for orcs...

'This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them.'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

[Inziladun]

It's notable though, that much is made of the fact that many Men followed Morgoth anyway. The Edain were rather the exceptions in aiding the Eldar.

Since so many Men were already under Morgoth's sway, why bother making them into Orcs? They weren't stronger, or better fighters than Men, I don't think. Especially when it's also said (though I can't for the moment recall the specific quote) that Morgoth knew the Eldar to have the greater innate power.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since so many Men were already under Morgoth's sway, why bother making them into Orcs?

I would say, at least in part, for the same reason some Maiar took 'orkish' shapes, to mock the Children of God. The question of orc-origins was still open to Tolkien because all he had actually published was that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves -- but not (necessarily) made from Elves.

Although perhaps more importantly, Treebeard had implied an actual timeline as well, and although Tolkien could get away with saying Treebeard has a great memory even if he couldn't necessarily know the actual origin of orcs (as a character in the story) -- his great memory yet implies that Tolkien 'should' take Treebeard's guidelines, as vague as they might be, into consideration.


Alatar, I realize you weren't saying anything about Men... which was rather my point actually.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galin

Men never slew Men?

Don't think that there was a time when they didn't.

There are plenty of things that can catch your eye in the history of Men, so in my opinion the argument that you are (seemingly) trying to imply here really doesn't go any further than focusing on one side of the coin. When Tolkien considered that Men were the stock for orcs...

Note that I wasn't saying anything about Men, except for the statement that the elves noted that Men fought for Melkor. My point is that, for some elves, the slide from elf to orc wasn't very far, and that elves shouldn't be throwing stones.