Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Guinevere]

I agree very much with everything Pitchwife has written!

Whereas the style of "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" reminded me more of the LotR, the CoH seems even more modern, with those morally ambiguous characters, rogues, and close characterisations.
In Doriath we meet Elves that are not only good and wise. (Saeros is a thoroughly disagreeable character, and Nellas very naïve)

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal! But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for the chapter The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, containing Túrin's reunion with Sador Labadal, his revenge on the usurper Brodda, Sador's death and Aerin's suicide in the burning hall, this is to me the part of the Narn which is closest to the spirit of Icelandic sagas, especially in the cameo character of Aerin.

Nice observation. I seem to remember that JRRT referred to Turin's story at least once as 'Turinssaga', which leads one to wonder to what degree the sagas influenced it.

Of course the burning of the hall reminds one of Njal's saga, though the circumstances are quite different. Turin's return to Dor-Lomin reminds me a bit of various young Icelanders returning to Iceland after going abroad and entering the service of a Norse king. And killing Brodda is of course exactly what any Icelander would do; no doubt if this were a saga Turin would have been sentenced to outlawry at the next Althing.

Indeed, at first glance Turin's outlawry appears to put the story somewhere in the genre of the outlaw sagas like Grettir's or Gisli Sursson's, but when you dig slightly deeper, Turin's outlawry differs significantly from theirs. If this were like those sagas, Sador's, Beleg's, and Brodda's kinsmen would want vengeance and Turin would be constantly on the run from them. Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

[Pitchwife]

Actually, Aiwendil, I think the saga character that is most clearly a model for Túrin has to be Sigurd the Volsung - dragonslayers both, and if I get the meaning of Sig-urd right (sig=victory and Urd=one of the Norns, goddesses of fate), doesn't that remind us of Túrins pseudonym Turambar? (Not my thought, but I can't at the moment remember where I read it; and I guess Sigurd could probably be construed as meaning something like "fated to be victorious" or some such - any Old Norse scholars around here?)

I, too, had Njals saga in mind when I wrote that bit about Aerin, but I also see echoes of Gudrun Gjuki's daughter and her 'Easterling' husband Atli in her and Brodda - not a happy marriage either, and in the Norse versions of the story she actually kills him (to avenge her brothers). It all doesn't add up to a 1:1 correspondence (which would be boring anyway), but I think we have here some of the ingredients that went into Tolkien's very own stew.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

"Have you always lived with your heart and half your mind far away?" (from memory) - Yes, he did. When he was with Nellas, he wasn't really with her - he was with Lalaith. I remember posting a while ago about this somewhere, but there is a note that says that (from memory again) "in all faces of women he sought the face of Lalaith". He is still that lost child who just experienced first grief, even though he pretends to be a "hard man by fate". Well, he doesn't exacly pretend, he is - but there is still an element of a child in him.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

Well, it's Androg who's done the killing, and he was punished harshly by Mim. But I agree that it is not easy to bear the presence of such a person every day in your own home. Turin's ransom is a different thing altogether, though the point is still valid.

But as much as I pity Mim, I can't call him an angel. Time and again he shows that he's no brave hero.

You made me think of something. Turin and Mim became very close, because they read each other's hearts. They have things in common - both were not masters in their own house (Mim at Amon Rudh and Turin in Dor-lomin), both had strict principles based on pride, and both are unable or unwilling to forgive. They speak a common language.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal!

Saying this, I would like to compare the Labadal of Turin's youth and his manhood. The first Labadal is a friend. Sometimes a guide and a teacher, but still a friend. An equal, or even a superior. The second Labadal is a faithful servant - but much inferior. Is it only Turin's age that made the difference? The disappearance of Hurin and Morwen? His own weakness (physical, yes, but also spiritual compared with Turin's might. Perhaps also the weakness of the "strawheads" in the country in general)?

Here we once again see the repetition of wisdom being a lesser thing than strength, although it should have been the opposite.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

I would say with renown, but secret renown. But she doesn't do it for renown. Makes any sense?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

I don't know any of the sagas that you mentioned, but I want to pick on that statement. Turin lives with a group. He is physically part of the group. But he is still alone at heart.

Edit: xed with Pitch

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, Aiwendil, I think the saga character that is most clearly a model for Túrin has to be Sigurd the Volsung

Sigurd is a clear influence, but I believe Tolkien expressed reservations about the literary quality of the Volsunga saga, which is why if one is to look for a saga influence I'd be more inclined to look first at the sagas of Icelanders.

sig=victory and Urd=one of the Norns, goddesses of fate

I think (I could very well be wrong) that it means rather "victory-guardian", cognate with Old English "Sigeweard".

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But he is still alone at heart.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think it's well to bear in mind that Turin did form friendships and meaningful relationships with his companions. He had a very deep friendship with Beleg; he seemed to have a real connection with Mim; he was a genuine friend of Gwindor; he had a somewhat complicated but strong relationship with Finduilas; he obviously loved Niniel and seemed to actually feel comfortable and at home with the people of Brethil, even if he didn't care for Brandir. Yes, his unique history set him apart from those he was with, but I don't know that he was any more alone than anyone in his situation would have been. In other words, I don't see him as a loner by nature, but rather as constantly set apart from those around him by reason of his past and of Morgoth's curse.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Today we move on to the last section of this chapter, including: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond, Nienor in Brethil, The Coming of Glaurung, The Death of Glaurung, and The Death of Túrin. The Notes and Appendix can also be discussed at this point.

The tragedy now comes to its conclusion. What part do Morwen's decisions have in Túrin's fate? Nienor has a passive role for the most part, but she does contribute to the fatefulness by disobeying her mother and following her. Is that a sign of courageous behaviour? At that moment she shows great inner strength! With Glaurung's enchantment, her loss of memory and the name change she seemingly experiences a change of character and becomes less active. However, she does follow Túrin and shares in the tragic end of the story.

Dragons are loved by many readers - what do you think of Glaurung? Is he particularly malicious, or just acting as a dragon must?

A number of Tolkien's other stories bore evidence of his Catholic beliefs. Is there any to be found here? It seems to me that the double suicide at the end is much closer to mythology than to Christianity.

Touching upon the discussion elsewhere about the use of "thee" etc. in Tolkien's works, there are several incidences here: Túrin speaking to Glaurung, Glaurung speaking to Nienor, and Túrin's last dialogue with his sword Gurthang.

I look forward to reading what you think about this chapter ending!

[Guinevere]

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

[Galadriel55]

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

Not that I dislike the other stories, or think that they are shallow, but their power lies in a different direction.

*I would say that The Sil in it's full is worth of this description as well

Dragons are loved by many readers - what do you think of Glaurung? Is he particularly malicious, or just acting as a dragon must?

He is described somewhere as Angband's most dangerous weapon (something of this sort), and well earns this title. But he is more than just a weapon. He's like an incarnated piece of Morgoth's evilness and malice.

I am not really sure how to answer the question, though. Is he doing something he decided to do, or is he doing what he was created for? He doesn't have a choice, and he doesn't want a choice. But it would be really interesting to take a peak at what goes on in his mind underneath the cunning.


I was really disappointed that CJRT didn't include the scene when Morwen dies. I understand that, since it's not really about the Children, but I like to have the family story completed. It's my favourite scene from the whole COH.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here slightly: you say that no other stand-alone story has the power of tragedy, a flat-out statement. Then you make it a matter of degree: "more than just foreboding. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water."

Of course, it's possible that I'm reading it this way because I think you're wrong about the flat-out statement. I don't think the Narn is the only stand-alone tragedy but I do agree that it has it in spades, that it's the most tragic. But the only tragedy? Aldarion and Erendis is flashing in my mind like the Las Vegas strip, and I think it's hard to argue either that it isn't tragic or that it isn't stand-alone.

For that matter, it's a fuzzy question where you draw the line between "part of the Silmarillion" and "stand-alone stories." Is "The Fall of Gondolin" a stand-alone story? I would argue that if the Narn is, the Fall must be--the main difference being that the Narn was a lot closer to being finished, while the Fall only exists completely in its Book of Lost Tales version--because of its early ending, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" reads more like a happy ending ("Woo! Tuor makes it!") than the tragedy of Turgon, Maeglin, and the Fall of Gondolin that it is supposed to lead into.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

I picked up this suggestion and am starting a discussion of the FCL very soon! I hope you join me!