The Ring: If Galadriel or Gandalf had taken it?

[Galadriel55]

Boro, I can't rep you again yet, but this post sure deserves one (or two or three...). It's something very interesting that I haven't heard or thought of before - Saruman the Scientist and Ring-Unmaker. And I think ths is exactly how it began.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Boro, I can't rep you again yet, but this post sure deserves one (or two or three...). It's something very interesting that I haven't heard or thought of before - Saruman the Scientist and Ring-Unmaker. And I think ths is exactly how it began.

A well-done post indeed.

I wonder though, if Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf isn't underestimated as a factor in the former's Ring-lust.

Consider that the envy apparently had its origins in Valinor. At the barely outlined council of the Valar in which they decided who their emissaries contesting Sauron would be, it was said that Manwë ordered Gandalf to go as the "third" (the first two being Curumo (Saruman) and Alatar), though he was afraid.

But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

UT The Istari

So the seed was there: Saruman had that gnawing him before he ever set foot at the Grey Havens.

In the UT section The Hunt For the Ring, Saruman's motives for emulating Gandalf's interest in the Shire are ascribed to that same jealousy.

Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.

Envy is certainly a trait that would lead one to a desire for power beyond one's native means, and Saruman's inner knowledge that Gandalf was both more favoured and more powerful would have been a tremendous boost to that.

[Lalwendë]

That's excellent Boro!

I completely agree that Saruman is one of the most fascinating villains in literature. He reminds me of a few others, namely Faust, Satan in Paradise Lost and The Master in Doctor Who (not literature, I know ). I'm sure there are a few more. But out of all of them, Saruman interests me most. He's an enticing figure, and more intelligent than almost any one else. He is not, however, more wise.

I think that at some point his mindset changed and it became difficult to discern which were his own motives and which had been planted there by Sauron. He was a great scientist and I do believe that he began studying Ring Lore with intentions of gaining a deep understanding, probably with the intention of doing good, but he perhaps went too deep into this and at that point his own surety in his intelligence and skill overcame his purpose in Middle-earth and he began to think that perhaps he could find a way to best Sauron by beating him at his own game.

The one factor which shows that he had gone too far is when he 'breaks the light'. Light is holy in Middle-earth, and Saruman was not content to simply accept Light as such, but sought to see how it worked and how he could improve upon it and use it.

Originally Posted by Boro

Saruman is incapable of understanding the limitations of his powers. And therefor I believe if he wanted the One Ring to "break it" (as he did with the white light) and uncover crafting his own Ring of Power, he wouldn't understand the fruitlessness of his pursuit.

This is a really good point! I've never really thought that maybe Saruman wanted the One Ring so he could break it and understand how it was made/what it did, but it makes perfect sense, given his history. Do you think it would be fruitless because he would be incapable of achieving that or because you think Sauron would instantly pounce on it?

[Andsigil]

Didn't Galadriel, herself, describe what would happen if she took the ring?

From The Fellowship of the Ring, page 381:

"And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountains! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"

The last line, to me, is particularly chilling. I can think of no modern earthly equivalent to such a ruler: one who sits so far above his or subjects, radiating some kind of super-terrestrial ambience; a figure that men love out of slavish, awestruck devotion; one whose blessing men crave instead of being pleased by it while they cringe and grovel in terror from his or her displeasure.

Perhaps someone like Kim Jong Il was such a figure for the North Koreans. He certainly had a lot of contrived mysticism surrounding his birth, rule, and accomplishments which they seemed to have thought was true. Looking at the recent news footage of the recent hysterical lunacy surrounding his death, I get the impression of slavish devotion, as well.

[Lalwendë]

I know. It's chilling. And I can't think of anyone in the modern or even recent world who inspired such devotion.

But rather than Kim Jong Il, who I think probably inspired much suppressed hatred too in his subjects (and those pictures of dramatic grief were likely carefully released to show the rest of the world just how 'loved' he was - or how they want us to think he was loved), I always take this vision of an all-powerful Galadriel to be something approaching a religious figure.

Galadriel is the Lady of Light, and Light is holy in Tolkien's creation. She also bears Nenya which has a 'white' stone, and White is also presented as a representation of divinity. She is represented by two symbols of divinity in Arda. As an aside, the Mirror of Galadriel appears to have stars suspended in the water - Light held in water, note that Nenya is the Ring of Water.

Sam climbed up on the foot of the pedestal and leaned over the basin. The water looked hard and dark. Stars were reflected in it.
'There's only stars, as I thought,' he said. Then he gave a low gasp, for the stars went out.

And Nenya is powerful. I think it's clear that it somehow possesses some of the Light:

She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Earendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above. So bright was it that the figure of the Elven-lady cast a dim shadow on the ground. Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.

'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

Given all this, I can quite easily see how, if she took the One Ring, she would be "beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night" and inspiring the sort of slavish devotion that no mere political leader could hope for and would only ever be given to a religious figurehead. A terrible and ultimately unkindly religious figurehead.

Of course, the question about Galadriel is that a 'cloud' still hangs over her for her part in the Noldorian rebellion, and there's debate over whether she is still one of those under the ban from Valinor because Tolkien was not perfectly clear. I think she is. This seems to be her 'test':

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light Faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'

That, given that in her youth Galadriel joined the Noldorian flight from Valinor because she sought power that she could not have there, showed how Galadriel was incredibly strong and had grown incredibly wise too. She had enjoyed long years of power in Middle-earth, had been, you could argue, the most powerful female figure in the whole of Arda, and now she had grown mature enough to know to reject further power.

I think that had she taken the One Ring, she could have become even more terrible than we could imagine. I don't doubt for a minute she could have bested Sauron, but at an awful cost. And just to add to all of this, she has placed an incredible faith in Frodo at this point, to know that she has accepted her power will diminish from that point, but not knowing (or does she?) that the One Ring will be destroyed.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Of course, the question about Galadriel is that a 'cloud' still hangs over her for her part in the Noldorian rebellion, and there's debate over whether she is still one of those under the ban from Valinor because Tolkien was not perfectly clear. I think she is. This seems to be her 'test':

I agree, but I would add (and not that you said otherwise) that Tolkien was quite clear about this in such text as he made public to his readership: Galadriel was a leader in the Rebellion and was under a ban while others of the Noldor were allowed West.


Enter the posthumous publications and 'canon' related debate (run away!) and then we raise the mirk in Mirkwood, so to speak.


Sorry to digress. Couldn't resist. Carry on

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Galin

Enter the posthumous publications and 'canon' related debate (run away!) and then we raise the mirk in Mirkwood, so to speak.

What better reason could there be to agree that she was 'on a ban' than to avoid getting into canonicity?