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Old 01-16-2012, 06:45 AM   #1
Alfirin
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I have absolutely zero textual basis for this, but I've alwayls liked to think that, amongst the things that Gandalf did in his "last journey" (between when he parted from the Hobbits in Bree and showed up at the Grey Havens) was to have a meeting with Radagast again and to basically hand over to him what little authority over Middle earth would be left in the Fourth age to come (Even with the Elves leaving en masse and the upcoming age to be one dominated by the race that was not at all bound to the music, I tend to think the Valar (at least, the kindlier Valar) would not wholly abandon Middle earth from thier eye. Five wizards were sent to directly encourage and exort the peoples of ME to restist Sauron's influence. It does not seem unreasonable to assume that one small one might be left to simply keep an eye on things) The fact that Radagast is permitted to stay is in my mind a sort of base for this. True, in straying from the path set him, Radagast had lost the right to return to the west in ease and triumph, as Gandalf had, but if he had truly screwed up to the point that he was considered a danger to ME in and of himself, or the Valar were wholly abandoning ME to it's own devices, you'd think Gandalf whould have forced him to leave, (It is my opinion that, when Gandalf cast Saruman out of the order, he ipso facto took over leadership of it, so he might have had the authority to force Radagast to leave ME if he so chose.) Plus Yavanna's dear Entish children were still in ME, and she might very well feel better knowing her chosen champion was still around to protect them from now rather unbound men with thier sharp axes and wood hunger.
As for the Two Blue Wizards that's a little more ambiguos. Tolkein certinly says he fears they failed, but in Tolkien's mind, so had Radagast (i.e. "failure" and "turned evil" do not neccecarily equate) Perhaps, had The Return of the Shadow been completed (and they actually had turned evil), we would have heard of them again, perhaps when The Mouth of Sauron rode out, there would also have rode out again a great army from the East (or was it the South?) "led by two who were robed in blue" (Actually that could be another reason Radagast was left, if the Two Blue wizards had turned evil but were still alive, there was always the possiblity that they might come back and try and do again what Saruman had tried to do (i.e. conqer and rule), so ME needed a wizard who was still on the side of "good", and who better to stand against the two sent by Orome the Huntsman (since the wizards seem to share some common characteristics with the Valar who sent them) than he who loved above all things the beasts and birds?)
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:13 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Alfirin View Post
I have absolutely zero textual basis for this, but I've alwayls liked to think that, amongst the things that Gandalf did in his "last journey" (between when he parted from the Hobbits in Bree and showed up at the Grey Havens) was to have a meeting with Radagast again and to basically hand over to him what little authority over Middle earth would be left in the Fourth age to come (Even with the Elves leaving en masse and the upcoming age to be one dominated by the race that was not at all bound to the music. . . .
Gandalf explicitly tell the hobbits (and us) that he is leaving them to spend some time chilling with Tom Bombadil. This might simply be a plot device to recall a minor character but at least Gandalf shows some strong sense of what the Bombadil household will have for him--it is something to which Gandalf clearly looks forward. There's no mention of Radagast that I can recall at the end of LotR, although readers with better memories than mine might recall better. If Radagast were to receive that task, surely he would be mentioned rather than Tom. (I've always felt uncomfortable with this point that Radagast failed--Tolkien says that Frodo did too I think--as if there's something inappropriate with his friendship with the animals. But perhaps his "failure" was to stray from the strict focus on the task at hand, to help destroy Sauron.)

Also, I'm not sure Gandalf himself would personally have the "authority" to "hand over" his own authority. His authority as I see it came to its rightful conclusion when the Ring was destroyed.

To return to a very old line from early years on the Downs, there's my two cents' worth.
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Old 01-16-2012, 03:52 PM   #3
Alfirin
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Originally Posted by Bęthberry View Post
Gandalf explicitly tell the hobbits (and us) that he is leaving them to spend some time chilling with Tom Bombadil. This might simply be a plot device to recall a minor character but at least Gandalf shows some strong sense of what the Bombadil household will have for him--it is something to which Gandalf clearly looks forward. There's no mention of Radagast that I can recall at the end of LotR, although readers with better memories than mine might recall better. If Radagast were to receive that task, surely he would be mentioned rather than Tom. (I've always felt uncomfortable with this point that Radagast failed--Tolkien says that Frodo did too I think--as if there's something inappropriate with his friendship with the animals. But perhaps his "failure" was to stray from the strict focus on the task at hand, to help destroy Sauron.)

Also, I'm not sure Gandalf himself would personally have the "authority" to "hand over" his own authority. His authority as I see it came to its rightful conclusion when the Ring was destroyed.

To return to a very old line from early years on the Downs, there's my two cents' worth.
I had not forgotten about Tom, I was simply assuming that The visit to him might not have beeen the ONLY thing Gandalf did in that time period (he said he was going to have a long talk with Tom, but a long talk might not have covered the whole period he was absent. As for why Radagast was not mentioned, it just may not have occured to Gandalf. The Hobbit's know and have met Tom, they do not know Radagast (Bilbo knows of him (since it was through Radagast's reputation that Gandalf tried to secure lodging for the Dwarves at Beorn's house (or was that only in the BBC radio show?) but Bilbo isn't there. Whether Gandalf has ever spoken of his other fellow wizards in the Fellowship is not written.) At bare minumum I would imagine Gandalf might have thought it worthwile to find Radagast to simply say goodbye, he is Gandalf's brother wizard and unlike Saruman, Gandalf respects Radagast and is somewhat fond of him (though since Gandalf is as well versed, if not better at the language of bird and beast, he could also have simply dispacted such a fairwell by a trusted messenger, if time did not permit).
Mark me, I'm not saying you are wrong in any of your assumptions, just that, as it stands, Radagast is sort of a loose end as the third age comes to a close; not sucessful enough to reuturn home, not bad enough to die (that's another point, since the wizards have elf type immortality (slayable, but not subject to natural death or ageing) Unless someone actually kills Radagast (unlikey, given how reclusive he is and the fact that most people who do know him like him) he has a fatal accident, or the Valar rescind his immortality, he's basically in ME forever (or, at least, until Daor Dagorath)
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:13 PM   #4
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Alfirin, I understand your line of thought, however, at least in my opinion, the in-Middle-Earth logic implies that Radagast was simply "forgotten", so to say. I would phrase it this way - he forgot about his mission and went to "play with animals", so also they forgot to inform him about his boat ticket back to Valinor, as well as about his appointment in the first place. It was not anything "evil" from Valar's part (or Gandalf's, for that matter): he did not even want the boat ticket back, obviously. It was simply like "yes, you decided not to do your duties and instead spend your days with your hobbies, we are not going to punish you for that, but we are also not going to reward you for it either; and after all, you seem happy where you are, so we simply won't interfere, you can stay in Mirkwood and be happy, we are not any enforcers." I think that's very nice and, when you look at the behavior of Eru/Valar in other situations, very typical.

Gandalf could not "give over" any authority of his. His task had been fulfilled. Radagast's task (which was the same as Gandalf's, and that of all other Wizards) had not been fulfilled. He did not do what he was supposed to do. That said, if e.g. some Dark Lord had risen in the future, nothing would prevent Radagast to stand up and fulfil his task then, if he decided that he wanted to step into the arena back again. That is, I think, also the basis for the best (and "canonically approvable") Fourth-Age-fictions. But he seemed generally not to be interested.

Let me use a parable - I think the Istari can be compared to a group of five elected politicians who are supposed to fulfil certain roles in the government. Some of them go to usurp the power for themselves, only one stays in office until the end of his term and does everything he was supposed to do. After his duty is finished, he gets some reward for that. Radagast basically quits his post and instead goes to retire in his cottage in the countryside. There are no obligations for him, he simply chose not to fulfil them. He chose not to do anything.

I cannot imagine Gandalf going to visit Radagast and "giving him over" the responsibility for Middle-Earth for several reasons. First, like I said, Gandalf had nothing left to give. Second, Radagast obviously did not want to be given any more responsibility. He did what he wanted, he did not want any obligations (maybe he did not consciously formulate it that way, but that is what he basically did). And Gandalf - especially the post-destruction-of-the-Ring Gandalf - would not "force" anything upon anybody. After the destruction of the Ring, Gandalf was just happy - at last, after thousands of years. And he also left the responsibility of Middle-Earth denizens (Hobbits with the Scouring and rebuilding the Shire is the best example) upon themselves. He would not go to Radagast and start reminding him of duties the Brown Wizard had forsaken. He would - like the Valar - just leave him do what he will.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:34 PM   #5
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Though it is a pleasant thought, Gandalf would not have handed off authority to Tom, another wizard, or any other greater entity as it would've been contrary to his intent, as well as that of Manwë who sent him originally, and of Eru who reincarnated him after the fight with the balrog.

I feel like this is one of the main themes of the work. With the immortal beings fading into the West, the time had come for mortal races to grow in stature, assuming the stewardship of Middle-earth.

The Valar had tried a full-on approach with Morgoth earlier, trying "to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed" - and well, that didn't end so well. Nor did the blunt measures taken concerning Numenor, where they dealt with Sauron on his own for the first time. This time, they were more subtle.

As above, the wizards were "forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt" (Unfinished Tales) - that is, not to fight the battle themselves, but to guide the elves, men, and hobbits to handle evil for themselves. If the battle was the wizards' to begin with, they would not have accepted the restrained forms of old men - they would've traveled directly to Mordor from Valinor at full potency and met Sauron head-on.

Accordingly, once Sauron is defeated at the end of The Lord Of The Rings, Gandalf charges the mortal races with the responsibility of Middle-earth in a conversation with Aragorn before he leaves Gondor for the last time:

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And Gandalf said, 'This is your realm, and the heart of the greater realm that shall be. The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended. And all the lands that you see, and those that lie around them, shall be dwellings of Men. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'

'I know it well dear friend,' said Aragorn; 'but I would still have your counsel.'

'Not for long now,' said Gandalf. 'The Third Age was my age. I was the enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.' (VI.5 "The Steward And The King")
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #6
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I'm just popping in to say there's another great thread touching upon a lot of the ideas that have been discussed here.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:16 PM   #7
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Well, a great thread indeed and I just would like to stress that all Istari who lived in the West contributed to the victory, even Saruman did. Partly his contribution came in a negative way, as his urge for the ring made a tremendous mess and confused Sauron badly enough. As a result of capturing Pippin and Merry by Saruman's uruk-hai, Sauron decided that the ring passed to Isengard and then, after Saruman's defeat, was in the hands of Aragorn - so Sauron sent insufficient forces to conquer Minas Tirith and lost it. And since then The Eye's primary attention was dedicated to the Captains of the West, not to two hobbits in his own domain.

Moreover, before succumbing to evil Saruman was a useful aid to Gondor and Rohan for ages; his role in the White Council was also positive in the beginning.

As for Radagast, he achieved some goals, such as establishing relations with Beorn (which proved to be of critical importance for the entire struggle), watching Dol Gudur and sending Eagles. It's highly likely, he prevented a conscription of any significant number of beasts and birds to Sauron's service.

While the general feel is that he stayed in ME after the War (if he survived it at all), can we suppose that he might have taken a ship to the West before the struggle was over? Can Vallar really blame him that he did not feel he was created for the fight? He went almost against his wish, so why not to go back if he thought, he was of no use any more? Not just elves, but even a maia did once in the past.

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