TIG XCIII - Betrayal at Henneth Annûn (Game thread)

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Inzil

So I guess the question would be, "why Sally?", though it seems obvious due to Bom being evil. I was wondering why they went for her and not me or Rune, but I guess the fact that she basically started the ball rolling on Bom did it.

Also, I think, her voting behaviour from Day 1, ie. debating whether to vote Gal or Bom and ending up voting the latter.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Casts some minor suspicion on Shasta, no reason given, and G55.

I don't think it really matters at this point, but the way I read it, he suspected Shasta and defended Gal.

Originally Posted by Rune

I never quite understood Aganzir's vote for Boromir. She plays along with his antics, states that he acts like this all the time and so on. . .

That is actually a good point; and when phrased like that it does look fishy. But like you, I think I'd need to do some rereading in order to decide anything.

[A Little Green]

In response to Agan's response to my points against her:

You conveniently failed to note the post where I stated my main reasons for thinking about voting for her

Ah. My post in question was a summary of the development of the Galwagon, not a full account of everything everyone said with regards to Gal; I only mentioned it when somebody brought up new points, or somebody new joined in the fray, etc. Perhaps I should have stated it clearer. Also, when I called your reason for voting Gal fishy or suspicious or strange or whatever it was, I was talking about that one particular point I had quoted, not the whole (the other arguments therein being ones others had stated too and that looked a little more valid.)

Agan hesitated because she was, especially as the deadline drew nearer, worried she had accidentally poked a gifted. If you don't see why, go read her last posts again. But there's no way to tell who's a real gifted and who's just giving vague hints in order to be saved, and as Gal didn't reveal, I thought she'd be safe to lynch. There's hesitation for you. Convenient, eh?

I still think it could be, as you know you'd say that same thing whether BN or innocent.

I don't like in the least the way Greenie seems to be twisting things. I don't know how obvious my doubts about Gal were or if it even occurred to anybody else, but it seems to me Greenie is intentionally ignoring it.

Yes, it occurred to me that Gal might be Gifted. It also occurred to me that it might have occurred to you. Look, I was not and certainly am not saying for a fact that you are a wolf. I was saying that your actions concerning the Gal lynch would well fit a wolf. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Agan

Would you be content if I had pursued a strong and misguided suspicion without a backward glance on day 1? Would that make me seem more innocent? I was hesitant because I was by no means convinced of her guilt. She was my best bet so far, but I voted her in order to eliminate someone I'd continue to be suspicious of in the future, rather than to lynch someone I was sure was a wolf.

Hesitation in itself is not fishy. The way you did it was. It might have been genuine for all I know, but it seemed too pronounced, too underlined, to be so. That, and you being one of the orchestrators of the original suspicion of Gal, makes for a fishy combination.

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That is actually a good point; and when phrased like that it does look fishy. But like you, I think I'd need to do some rereading in order to decide anything.

I think it's definitely a point, but I can't see it as too fishy. It didn't seem like Agan was trying to get anyone else to vote for Boro, how I read it is that she's so concentrated on their "dance" (and yes, your rhetoric does make that annoying to read, Boro and Agan) that she didn't have the concentration to go through anyone else. Which I understand, even though I don't see it as highly contributing. However, this message of Greenie's is starting to worry me. Feels like you have something especially against Agan (alliteration, even if not a pronounced but only a written one - the linguist in me jumps with joy ^^). We can't of course be sure about her, but Bom's vote for her would definitely seem to give to her some innocence points. After two days of discussing mainly her I feel like we should somewhat move on, broaden our vision, and I'll be definitely looking at you, dear Greenie, with some concentration.

edit. x/ed with Greenie's second one

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

We can't of course be sure about her, but Bom's vote for her would definitely seem to give to her some innocence points. After two days of discussing mainly her I feel like we should somewhat move on, broaden our vision, and I'll be definitely looking at you, dear Greenie, with some concentration.

I agree that Bom's vote should be a consideration regarding Agan, as I said here.

I really haven't seen where this suspicion of Agan has had a lot of merit thus far.
As Pom says, the focus on Agan should be broadened to include everyone, and especially any who have been quietly slipping along in the shadows....

[A Little Green]

I am not intending to spend toDay concentrating on Agan, I think that would be stupid. I talked about her because I wanted to comment on Rune's point and in the second post because she left me stuff I felt I needed to address before moving on to other subjects. Which, incidentally, is what I intend to do now. I'd like a look at a few less discussed players, probably starting with Glirdy and checking some others too if I have the time. Also, I think a proper look at the voting yesterDay might give us something.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

OK New Plan. . . I am in charge.

I do apologise if I have made a miscalculation and doomed us all.

Anyways the plan is this.

We do not lynch

Me
Boromir
Pommy
Greeny

why? You ask.

Because we are the good guys.

That leaves us with

Aganzir
Glirdan
Inziladun
Loslote

Even if we get everything wrong, we should be able to kill the BN before we are equal numbers.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Also I can prove that I speak the truth... as I know who Mablung is, who in turn can give us another innocent name.

[A Little Green]

That simplifies things. Rune is telling the truth. Shasta, whom he had forgotten from his list, is Damrod.

[Aganzir]

BOM SUSPECTED
Agan - voted.
Rune - voted.
Shasta - didn't like him at all, once, on day 1. Questioned his logic on day 2.

BOM DEFENDED
Nate - didn't find her swift skill alarming.

THE REST
Lottie - bantered about.
Greenie
Boro
Glirdan
Inzil

I am assuming Rune is innocent, and Inzil too for that matter (see below). I can't say anything about Shasta because it was only a mild suspicion and even though Bom questioned him like once, it's hardly enough to prove anything.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

I feel that with Bom being BN I lost the base from all my suspects so far, more or less. Rune gave Bom the final vote and has been wanting him lynched for quite a while, sally's dead, Bom gave Agan a vote he could've seen as final, Inzil voted for Bom as well

So Pom systematically suspected people who suspected Bom and/or whom his death pretty much exonerated?

I don't think it's impossible a fellow or two voted for Bom, but I find it somewhat unlikely. He wasn't the obvious lynch choice - as I see it, he was lynched for being quiet/unproductive rather than being an obvious BN. In any case, when we look at the votes he got yesterday... Inzil started it off because he wanted to save me (I am touched), and along came sally and Rune who had been making anti-Bom points for a while already. I think we can safely assume Inzil is also innocent because even if he couldn't have suddenly turned against me after everything he'd said about me, he could have voted for Glirdan and Boro instead of starting a bandwagon against a fellow.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I never quite understood Aganzir's vote for Boromir. She plays along with his antics, states that he acts like this all the time and so on. . . I probably need to read through her posts, but right now it seems to me her reaction has been rather odd.

He doesn't act like this all the time. He is up to something at all times, but sometimes he comes across as more genuine than he's now. You could say I found him suspicious from the first but kept testing him till I reached the conclusion I did yesterday. However, I can freely admit I am an extremely subjective player and few things, apart from a revelation of sorts and in all likelihood not even that, could now convince me of his innocence.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, Lottie, my first post of the Day you're saying it's completely unproductive? That fact that everyone now knows I trust Rune more than anyone else today is completely counter-productive? And that I was possibly in the wrong to vote for Agan yesterday? Again, totally unproductive and you can't possibly read anything out of it?

Lottie didn't say that. She pointed out that your post looked like you were trying to minimise the damage caused by Bom's sudden and unexpected death. Either you're reading too much into it, or you're trying to twist her words. Did anyone else see the classic BN trick Boro just attempted?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Also, when I called your reason for voting Gal fishy or suspicious or strange or whatever it was, I was talking about that one particular point I had quoted, not the whole (the other arguments therein being ones others had stated too and that looked a little more valid.)

When I made the list, I considered for a while putting in the things I had said a couple of posts earlier, and decided against it and only wrote down the thing that had me wondering about her the most. I thought it might also serve as a little trap for people who'd want to highlight possibly suspicious things I'd said while leaving out bits and pieces, if you know what I mean. The fact that you cited it as the only reason I voted for Gal (later referring to my whole suspicion as "Agan's point against her") is extremely unsettling because what you're saying is basically "Agan voted for Gal without a reason". I should add that while Greenie did a nice job of analysing the day 1 voting, there is precious little we can learn from it because there were no BNs dead, and innocents lynch each other all the time with reasons that prove to be bad in hindsight, especially on day 1s. That kind of vote analysis actually reminds me of a shark swimming into a school of fish.

Originally Posted by Greenie

I still think it could be, as you know you'd say that same thing whether BN or innocent.

And if I did it regardless of my role, why on earth are you using it as a point against me?

Originally Posted by Greenie

Look, I was not and certainly am not saying for a fact that you are a wolf. I was saying that your actions concerning the Gal lynch would well fit a wolf. There's a difference.

The first one would be stating I'm a wolf. The second one is implying I'm a wolf. The first leads to you suspecting, maybe voting for me. The second leads to other people getting a vaguely uneasy feeling of me while you can sit back and watch, and, if I die, avoid getting my blood on your hands.

Hesitation in itself is not fishy. The way you did it was. It might have been genuine for all I know, but it seemed too pronounced, too underlined, to be so. That, and you being one of the orchestrators of the original suspicion of Gal, makes for a fishy combination.

There's nothing I can say to that.

Anyway I'm going to have a look at what people said about Bom (unless someone else managed to do it while I wrote this post).

[Aganzir]

Greenie, I hate you. So much that I want to hug you. Why why why do we always do this?

And Boro, I hate you too! (Except it was fun, but I guess it has to stop now, right?)

I'm just kind of laughing aloud here.

Thank you kind Rune!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

But I wouldn't mind hearing your own reasonings for voting G55.

I stated them right before I voted G55 - I thought she was being too intent on changing the subject early on, which ended up drawing attention her way.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

1) Nowhere did I say I believed him innocent. If anything, I have less trust for Boro in these games then I have for you.

2) I agreed with him in thinking this pack is confident and bold. Which is Boro in a nutshell. We would be crazy to fully trust him. And yet, I did not outwardly say that I suspect him. I was pointing out a fact: Boro likes to steer conversations to his own benefit, much like tp, only with less ego. Noggins death on Night 2 is sure to be a conversation starter for numerous reasons, and one that a BN Boro could start and steer in any direction he chooses.

3) I also mentioned Sally in that post, or did you miss that?

One of the more interesting points I found today, and simply put - Glirdan is crazy overdefensive here. For point 1, I never said that you said you "believed him innocent". I said you agreed with him (which you mention in your next point.) Here's what I said -

Originally Posted by Shasta

Eh? I'm not really sure what you're saying here, because it looks like you're agreeing with Boro in one breath and then suspecting him in the next.

- so the fact that you felt like you had to overstate that you don't think Boro is innocent without reason feels incredibly jumpy to me.

For point 2, you may as well have. See here -

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I feel a nervous pack would have been a little more hesitant in their kill selection which also leads me to believe that the Wolves want us to think this way. For all we know, either you yourself dear sallycake or Boro or maybe even both could have been the ones planning this during the night to help steer the conversation in the direction you so choose.

You basically say here that Boro and/or Sally "could have" planned the Nog-kill - which implies you have a reason for thinking such. Also, I feel I need to point out that you say you never said you believed Boro to be innocent, and yet you also say you didn't outwardly suspect him, either. These don't really seem compatible - either you believe Boro is innocent, or you suspect him.

For point 3, I'm aware you mentioned Sally. However, you hadn't agreed with Sally in the beginning of the very same post. Which is what caught my eye about Boro.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Shasta is the first to vote Gal. Not sure what the "dismissal" mentioned here is. Clarification please?

The dropping of the subject. I didn't see that G55 had ever responded to it after I mentioned it, so I figured she didn't have a response and was ignoring it, hoping it'd go away.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I am not thrilled with the two Agan votes. One came, seemingly out of the blue (or at least it seemed that way to me) from Boro, and seems to be due to some reasoning of his that the rest of us are not privvy to.

Really? It seems to me he's been suspecting her on and off since the game started. Boro's vote for Agan really isn't that surprising, is it?

Originally Posted by Boro

My focus on Agan yesterday was mostly out of laziness and excessive pride in refusing to back out of a challenging dance.

Boro, you said this yesterday -

Originally Posted by Boro

I realize I'm heading out to a store, and since there's only 2 hours til DL. I doubt it'll be that long of a trip, but don't really want to chance it. So..

++Agan

Thanks for replying dear, pretty much giving me the last assurance I need. I mean, come on, you should know even if I can convince myself you're a BN, it's a hard dilemma I face of voting you or not.

It's a battle of duty vs my heart telling me I love when you're evil and I like watching you in your full wolvish glory. I mean, it may make me a terrible person to say, and I'm certainly rubbish at the tango, but I still love our dances, even if we might be on opposite sides.

Did Bom coming up as a wolf really change your opinion of Agan that drastically?

Originally Posted by Inzil

So I guess the question would be, "why Sally?", though it seems obvious due to Bom being evil. I was wondering why they went for her and not me or Rune, but I guess the fact that she basically started the ball rolling on Bom did it.

That, along with that, like Nog, Sally really hadn't had a chance to do much, seems likely to me as well. Which means we have a pattern, which means we can speculate on who, as wolves, would consistently kill people who leave no trace (and this is where Agan comes in and says "that does us no good, why bother”. )

Originally Posted by Inzil

In retrospect he gave some clues, couching them in jokes.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you there, but why? Bom Numenorean had nothing to gain by hinting at his evilness, from what I can see.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Responds to Shasta, saying Nog didn't leave much to analyze as to why he was killed.

Which makes me want to do it even more, of course. Interestingly enough, Agan said the same thing later in the day.

Originally Posted by Boro

I should have actually listened to sally instead of casting it off as "Bom is being like Bom and let me continue prodding Agan because I'm too lazy to think about anything else."

I don’t like this. Boro has spent the past two days making sure we all know how devious and manipulative he is, and this is the second time today he’s played himself off as being lazy.

Originally Posted by Boro

So, Lottie, my first post of the Day you're saying it's completely unproductive? That fact that everyone now knows I trust Rune more than anyone else today is completely counter-productive? And that I was possibly in the wrong to vote for Agan yesterday? Again, totally unproductive and you can't possibly read anything out of it?

If you wanted to see the pinnacle of unproductivity from me, I thought you would have remembered my late useless post on the theory of Balrogs and Wings several villages ago.

This is also completely unproductive, Boro my dear.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

That simplifies things. Rune is telling the truth. Shasta, whom he had forgotten from his list, is Damrod.

Also truth. Hi. Also, forgetting about me, Rune? Ouch.