Bombadil: One of the Blue Wizards?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

... in addition, Tom is the "eldest" because he existed before The Lord of the Rings was ever conceived by the author (as a stuffed toy in his children's bedroom, and as a character in his own set of poems).

Not Eru, not a Maia, not anything directly attributable to Middle-earth (ergo the One Ring has no affect or hold on him), he is a character outside of time inserted into a story because he amused the author, and the author said as much. And Tolkien must be laughing somewhere at the endless scholarly debate his jest has engendered.

Heh, indeed! Tom could be one of the most 'in' of in-jokes ever committed to paper. A critic who was fond of post-modernism and all that malarkey could have a field day exploring this from the angle of authorial intervention. Of course, if Tolkien did intend Tom this way then he made a thoroughly good job of it as he fits right in and the sense, for the reader, is worlds apart from the sorts of intrusions you find in The French Lieutenant's Woman for example.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do want to point out though that Bombadil as an Ainu would not be affected by the One, having an inherently greater power than its Maia maker.

But would being an Ainu mean that? There's a quote somewhere (a comment made by Gandalf or Elrond) that Tom too would suffer should Sauron succeed in his aims, which suggests he is not part of the hierarchy we know about. He's not logical and doesn't 'fit' neatly. The question is - would he too suffer because he is not an Ainu or in spite of him being an Ainu?

Here's another thing - if he is one of the Ainur or Maiar then Tom is pretty much going to be tied to his physical form in the same way as Melian, Morgoth, and a host of others. He eats and drinks, I think he smokes, and he has a wife. Not sure what this means yet though...Hmmm...

But I think, in his own lovely words, Tom tells us that he was here before anyone, even anything, in Middle-earth. I have a suspicion that in some way, he might have been 'houseless'

Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?

That line makes me think of the words spoken to Eowyn when the Nazgul threatens her, "He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." It's equally chilling, speaking of extreme and almost unending loneliness.

But it was not an unpleasant loneliness to Tom. It was just how it was when he first lived in Middle-earth:

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But would being an Ainu mean that? There's a quote somewhere (a comment made by Gandalf or Elrond) that Tom too would suffer should Sauron succeed in his aims, which suggests he is not part of the hierarchy we know about. He's not logical and doesn't 'fit' neatly. The question is - would he too suffer because he is not an Ainu or in spite of him being an Ainu?

Hm, you're right. Indeed Gandalf (who to me is the voice of Tolkien in the books) does note that Tom lacked the power to defeat Sauron. That would point away from the Ainu idea, I think.

Also, having finally acquired HOME #1, I recall that in the early drafts of LOTR, Farmer Maggott was to have been related to Bombadil in some way. That would have take away from Tom's singularity in the ME cosmology.

If Tom was not Eru, then it follows he must have been some other sort of created being. Would Eru have made a unique creature like Tom for some opaque purpose? What would that purpose have been? Bombadil was known to some of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men, who had all given him names at some point, but his actual contributions to ME history appear to be negligible. And hobbits, who lived next door to him, were entirely (as far as we are told) unaware of his existence.

Or, was Tom (with Goldberry too, perhaps) part of some other race that was largely unknown to Middle Earth's primary historians, the Eldar? It's possible, at least. After all, hobbits themselves flew under the radar of the majority of ME's denizens for countless years. And to add fuel to the fire, could Beorn have been some sort of "half-Bombadil"?


*I do of course know the RL reason for Tom's appearance in the books; Tolkien made that quite clear in letter and other writings. But I do love wild speculation whenever I can find a cause for it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, having finally acquired HOME #1, I recall that in the early drafts of LOTR, Farmer Maggott was to have been related to Bombadil in some way. That would have take away from Tom's singularity in the ME cosmology. . . .
Or, was Tom (with Goldberry too, perhaps) part of some other race that was largely unknown to Middle Earth's primary historians, the Eldar? It's possible, at least.

I'm also a recent (well, within the last two years) convert to the early HoMe books. BoLT, vol 1 has this early version of the Coming of the Valar. (And this is related to a paper I wrote last summer about the Bombadils.)

Originally Posted by BoLT, vol 1, p. 660

About them [ie, the Yavanna and Aule] fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.

Of this passage, Christopher Tolkien comments:

Originally Posted by Notes to the Coming of the Valar, BoLT, I, p. 80

Particularly interesting is the passage concering the host of lesser spirits who accompanied Aule andPalurien, from which one sees how old is the conception of the Eldar as quite dissimilar in essential nature from 'brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns', since the Eldar are 'of the world' and bound to it, whereas those others are beings from before the world's making. In the later work there is no trace of any such explanation of the 'pixie' element in the world's population: the Maiar are little referred to and certainly not said to include such beings as 'sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve.'

It seems to me that Tom and Goldberry could very well be such as sing amid the grass (well, Tom sings amid the trees) and chant among the standing corn (Goldberry dances in the grass).

Christopher Tolkien does not say when Tolkien Sr. made the changes to the Silm material, but it certainly seems to me that there is much in the enigmatic Tom and Goldberry that fits this early concept of fays who existed before the world was made. That would certainly explain the point about Tom's age.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Tolkien via Bethberry

About them [ie, the Yavanna and Aule] fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them; but the Eldar are of the world and love it with a great and burning love, and are wistful in all their happiness for that reason.

That's lovely (you can always encounter something in Tolkien that catches your eye differently...amazing) and makes me want to go and read this part through again for myself. And makes me think of certain folk songs, themselves based on folk tales, such as John Barleycorn - where the crop itself is personified. No doubting that Tolkien of course knew these songs and knew more than most about the old folktales, and genus loci.

There's an urge to try and explain/understand and categorise for Tolkien fans and it's just not possible when Tolkien threw in aspects that do not fit into any hierarchy. Makes me think of how there has always been a blurring of boundaries, certainly for the most ordinary of people, between the pre-Christian and the more modern world - the former being chaotic in nature, the latter more structured. That's reflected in what Tolkien wrote down, throwing us characters like Tom along with Elves, packaged (more or less neatly) into 'castes', and having to be taught their place in a world that also included Maiar and Ainur.

But anyway, I like to at least try to explain/understand, even if the urge to categorise is less strong for me These sprites of nature, and Tom himself, are all very fond of singing and chanting - and the world was created with Music. I have to think they have something to do with how the world was crafted, it's too nice an idea to ignore!

Amazing though...Tolkien's creation was a kind of Faerie, and within it, he created another Faerie...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That's lovely (you can always encounter something in Tolkien that catches your eye differently...amazing) and makes me want to go and read this part through again for myself. And makes me think of certain folk songs, themselves based on folk tales, such as John Barleycorn - where the crop itself is personified. No doubting that Tolkien of course knew these songs and knew more than most about the old folktales, and genus loci.

I've recently been reading on folk and fairy tales--the collection actually mentions Tolkien's essay OFS!--and am intrigued about just how much Tolkien knew but the ideas are still percolating (or perhaps I should say brewing).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

But anyway, I like to at least try to explain/understand, even if the urge to categorise is less strong for me These sprites of nature, and Tom himself, are all very fond of singing and chanting - and the world was created with Music. I have to think they have something to do with how the world was crafted, it's too nice an idea to ignore!

It seems to me to offer an explanation of why the Ring has no effect on Tom. He "was" before the world began and before Melkor brought evil/discord into the music, so quite possibly Tom has no concept of evil. He just can't recognise it or appreciate it or understand it. He is pure innocence.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Amazing though...Tolkien's creation was a kind of Faerie, and within it, he created another Faerie...

Shhh! You must come and hear my paper. Or one of them at any rate.

[Lalwendë]

And look at the relationships he has with Old Man Willow and with Goldberry. OMW is really sinister and almost consumes the Hobbits, but is not treated as evil by Tom, just as a wild thing that needs singing to in order to be tamed. Goldberry is the daughter of the river and has to be brought offerings of water lillies to keep her content over the winter months. 'Evil' doesn't seem to figure in Tom's world, things just 'are'. That really is innocent.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Hm, you're right. Indeed Gandalf (who to me is the voice of Tolkien in the books) does note that Tom lacked the power to defeat Sauron. That would point away from the Ainu idea, I think.

Maiar and Valar are kinds of Ainur, aren't them? I would say Bombadil shows powers comparable to those of a Maia. If we opt for the idea Bombadil is an Ainu, we have to decide if he came into the world with the host of Valar, participated the creation and stays in ME since they left, or he came independently and did not take part in the creation, just watched it. In the first case he either was left for some purpose or simply defected. He well may belong to those other orders of creatures mentioned, but, again, his powers are similar to those of a maia and Gandalf for some reasons makes the comparison.

I wouldn't say Bombadil doesn't belong to ME. In my view he belongs to it more than all other creatures living there, as they are there only temporarily (no matter for how long) he is the older one and the last one to stay. He is well aware of what's going on there. He is there on purpose, if Eru ever existed

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Maiar and Valar are kinds of Ainur, aren't them? I would say Bombadil shows powers comparable to those of a Maia. If we opt for the idea Bombadil is an Ainu, we have to decide if he came into the world with the host of Valar, participated the creation and stays in ME since they left, or he came independently and did not take part in the creation, just watched it. In the first case he either was left for some purpose or simply defected. He well may belong to those other orders of creatures mentioned, but, again, his powers are similar to those of a maia and Gandalf for some reasons makes the comparison.

I meant Bombadil as an Ainu comparable to the Valar. Bur it seems clear that he entered Arda alone, not with the them, and had aims quite different from theirs. However, his lacking the power to defeat Sauron the Maia would seem to put him at at a lower, or at best equal, level of creation than Sauron

Which leads back to Gandalf, and him being the only one who really seems to have a clue about who Tom really was. Maybe Gandalf merely knew him to be a fellow Maia who had come to Middle-earth on his own long before the awakening of the Elves, like Melian and (I think) Ungoliant.

[leapofberen]

Bombadil aside, Tolkien reckoned that the Blue Wizards fell as Saruman did in one of his many letters (211 in Letters, though perhaps he was not certain...

[They were as] Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were [the far East of ME]. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

That seems to run awry of the nature of Bombadil, both within LOTR and Tolkien's other letters. Not to mention the extreme geographic differences of the Blue Wizards and Bombadil throughout the Third Age.

From a completely personal pov, I obtain the sense that Bombadil is simply too ancient, unaffected, earthy and aloof to have been one of the Istari sent to Middle Earth. Besides, Gandalf goes to see him at the end of The Return stating that while he has been a stone doomed to roll, Bombadil has been a quote:

moss gatherer...but my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

This seems to say to me that Gandalf held Bombadil in a regard unlike that of the other Istari anyhow.