The Capital of Cardolan

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Dúgorin

Any thoughts?

Capitals are on the edge of the land not because it's a country or a province, but because it could mean that the location is logical for trade/control/etc. They have a strategical location. Sometimes it means making them closer to a river or the sea to have a port and have control over transportation, those leaving/entering/going past the city, collecting taxes from merchants, and so on and so forth. Though it's not necessarily near water, it's just usually in the center of things, wherever the center is. There's a reason they say that all roads lead to Rome.

(Mark here that of the cities you mentioned, Dol Amroth is a sea port and Pelargir a river port, Minas Ithil stands at a crossroad, and Isengard is at a point that "divides" east, west, and south. Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge)

However, I've heard of capitals that were deliberately put more inland for defensive purposes (eg I heard one of the reason's for Canada's illogical choice of capital - Ottawa (at that time just a small town) over larger cities like Montreal - was to reduce the damage of a possible attack from the States, due to it being less accessible and a bit farther from the border).

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge).

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

I now wonder if the splinter realms of Cardolan and Rhudaur were organised enough to even have a formal capital. Were the Dúnedain in those realms numerous enough to need one, or did the majority of them stay loyal to Arthedain? Where would Rhudaur's have been?

The only major places of habitation in the North Kingdom of which the reader is told were Annúminas and Fornost, and both were within the bounds of Arthedain. If the self-styled lords of Cardolan and Rhudaur had felt the need for a center of government, why couldn't they have made do with a castle or fortress somewhere? There needn't have been a large city or town around it.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I now wonder if the splinter realms of Cardolan and Rhudaur were organised enough to even have a formal capital. Were the Dúnedain in those realms numerous enough to need one, or did the majority of them stay loyal to Arthedain? Where would Rhudaur's have been?

The only major places of habitation in the North Kingdom of which the reader is told were Annúminas and Fornost, and both were within the bounds of Arthedain. If the self-styled lords of Cardolan and Rhudaur had felt the need for a center of government, why couldn't they have made do with a castle or fortress somewhere? There needn't have been a large city or town around it.

I missed this reply the last time I reviewed this excellent thread. I know there isn't any named towns/cities, and it is obviously lost to the fringes of Tolkien's stories as undeveloped, but to me, with the fragmenting of the crown among the brothers, there surely would have been some 'royal' seat for for the Rhudaurian and Cardolanion princes who become kings of the fragments. Forever in the realm of fanfiction.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I missed this reply the last time I reviewed this excellent thread. I know there isn't any named towns/cities, and it is obviously lost to the fringes of Tolkien's stories as undeveloped, but to me, with the fragmenting of the crown among the brothers, there surely would have been some 'royal' seat for for the Rhudaurian and Cardolanion princes who become kings of the fragments. Forever in the realm of fanfiction.

Maybe they didn't! The term is itinerant court, and what it means is that there is no capital - or rather, the capital is wherever the court happens to be this week. Apparently the Holy Roman Empire used it, because the states in it were liable to fall apart if the court didn't show up frequently to keep an eye on them. Given that Arnor already fell apart, I can see the kings of Cardolan and Rhudaur adopting the technique.

It might even explain why the last stand of Cardolan took place in an ancient graveyard, rather than, oh, a castle. Maybe there were no decent castles in Cardolan - just "royal palaces" that were little more than hunting lodges, scattered around the country so that the kings could keep moving and putting out the various fires their country fell prey to.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Apparently the Holy Roman Empire used it, because the states in it were liable to fall apart if the court didn't show up frequently to keep an eye on them.
hS

Well, that's not really the reason. It had more to do with the fact that each successive Emperor (or King of the Germans, since several couldn't be bothered to go to Rome and have the Pope crown them) was working from his own power base of family lands and vassals and naturally would keep his administration there; Habsburgs would base themselves in Innsbruck or Vienna, Luxembourgs in Prague, Wittelsbachs in Munich.

But Tolkien I think is thinking of an earlier period before the idea of a "capital" really arose in the West: the Court moved with the King, who moved around not necessarily to keep fractious subjects in line (although that happened a lot as well), as that in the early Middle Ages (a) the "government" wasn't very many people and was therefore portable, and (b) as in Farmer Giles, a royal entourage tended to hit a local economy like a swarm of locusts, and was obliged to move on when all the food and drink was gone.

But I suppose the question has to be asked why this situation would apply in Cardolan and Rhudaur, when the Dunedain and the Numenoreans before them had had capitals, and Arthedain still did.

[Dúgorin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge)

Yer, I wasn't saying that it could be the capital BECAUSE it was on the edge, I was saying that the fact that it's on the edge doesn't mean that it CAN'T be the capital, as some of the earlier posts mentioned that because it is on the edge it is an odd location for a capital.

[lindil]

excellent thread folks - we have so little data about the north compared to Gondor...

Curiously no one has mentioned the town a few miles from the barrow Downs BREE!





However - it seems clear that the dunedain never populated or seriously encroached on it - leaving the non-numenorean/hobbit population to it's own devices.

Why the burial mounds would be next door to Bree? Perhaps the mounds were erected after a particularly devastating battle. Easier [less rotting - to put it bluntly] to build tombs than move them down road hundreds of miles, seems one possible answer.

re: Tharbad as Cardolanian chief city and final public outpost of the Dunedain.

The Dunedain were very much preservers, as far as they could, and Tharbad had been established as an early 'crossroads', never thought about the math that puts it's final abandonment to bilbo's 21st year - excellent data point.

It would have had ancient buildings, close[r] contact both with Gondor, Rohan and even the more civilized Dunlendings and was probably 'The City' for all the wild lands surrounding it - even maybe for the Druedain fisherfolk on the coast , so it almost certainly was the chief city if not outright [if such things needed to be formalized] 'capital'. By Bilbo's day it would have been the ONLY Numenorean inhabited City/Town in the North that was not secret.

There is no doubt a direct relation between the waning Tharbad and the [upstream by 150 miles or so] 'Hidden Fastness' of the remaining Dunedain of the North at the Angle of the Loudwater and Hoarwell Rivers - and the Fell Winter's abandonment of Tharbad due to decimation of an already dwindling population. Tharbad still would have been monitored by the rangers just as sarn ford was and bree as an obvious entry into Eriador.


One can imagine the despair and sorrow the Dundeain of the North would have felt no longer even having a post office for Gondor to leave a message at [since they clearly did not know where Imladris was] though the Ringwraiths did as they abandoned their last decaying outpost and town and retreated upriver to a private village close on exactly 1/2 way between rivendell and Tharbad. Since it was in Rhudaur, the hidden fastness was quite possibly nothing more than a ranger/refugee camp grown permanent. maybe becoming the barrows for the Re-United Kingdom...

In light of this one sees how provincial even Butterbur had become, forgetting what must have been know 2 or 3 generations before that the Rangers guarded the North, and had some kind of direct Authority in Tharbad - which must have been known as 'the city to the south'.

Some of Aragorns scorn could then be credited to his bitterness that Mordor was known to Butterbur but he 'did not know' where rangers hailed from, though surely his grandfather would have had some idea.

[BGreg]

Originally Posted by lindil

The Dunedain were very much preservers, as far as they could, and Tharbad had been established as an early 'crossroads', never thought about the math that puts it's final abandonment to bilbo's 21st year - excellent data point.

It would have had ancient buildings, close[r] contact both with Gondor, Rohan and even the more civilized Dunlendings and was probably 'The City' for all the wild lands surrounding it - even maybe for the Druedain fisherfolk on the coast , so it almost certainly was the chief city if not outright [if such things needed to be formalized] 'capital'. By Bilbo's day it would have been the ONLY Numenorean inhabited City/Town in the North that was not secret.

I don't think that Tharbad was populated by Numenoreans anymore by the time of Fell Winter. They probably all died centuries ago, and were replaced by Dunlendings. How did that happen? Their bloodline was mixed with the blood of the lesser Men, and slowly turned them into 'ordinary' Men, completely oblivious of their descent. Unlike in Gondor, which was well populated, here the Numenoreans would have very little contact with strangers or other Dunedain, and would have been forced to breed with lesser Men to survive. So after centuries of life in fear, they would have consisted primarily of Dunlending Men.
So, the last remnants of Tharbad were actually only abandoned by those Dunlendings, who then went south in pursuit of a happier life, safe from cold winters of the North.

[lindil]

Plausible theory, but I would demur based on the proximity of Tharbad to the hidden refuge of the northern Dunedain, and their propensity to guard what was left of Arnor. And THE road from the south would have been their link to Rohan if not Gondor also in the waning of the 3rd age. Denethor was able to piece clues together re: thorongil/aragorn and one may well have been a remnant in Tharbad into his youth. Perhaps, always on the look out for allies, Denethor would have traveled the extra leg past Isengard when touring what was to be his realm, and been bitterly disappointed in what he saw, if he knew Aragorn to be northern Dunedain, and he did, then exploring what was left of their realm however tenuous - especially seems I picture it as something of a Bree, but with some dunedain still left, they would have been the gatekeepers etc. But already the process of keeping the heir hid, and their organization seemingly decentralized would be there. With the evidence left one can certainly conjecture either way though I have to admit!

I do concur that there would have been some increased Dunlending integration or trade at the least, however, they were a people of the forest and bore a heavy grudge against Numenoreans [see UT on Numenorean 2nd age forest devastation - and the resulting attitude that lasted into the 3rd age] and their allies [witness Brethil in the Silm] and while they undoubtedly had towns picturing them inhabiting as lords the remnants of a former Arnorian city does not seem like their style. I guess it would be more a town they went to trade in similar to the bree/shire relationship. Sadly JRRT does not to my mind give us more clues I am aware of, perhaps there are elaborations in HoM-E 12, etc. others can chime in with.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by lindil

I do concur that there would have been some increased Dunlending integration or trade at the least, however, they were a people of the forest and bore a heavy grudge against Numenoreans [see UT on Numenorean 2nd age forest devastation - and the resulting attitude that lasted into the 3rd age] and their allies [witness Brethil in the Silm] and while they undoubtedly had towns picturing them inhabiting as lords the remnants of a former Arnorian city does not seem like their style. I guess it would be more a town they went to trade in similar to the bree/shire relationship. Sadly JRRT does not to my mind give us more clues I am aware of, perhaps there are elaborations in HoM-E 12, etc. others can chime in with.

I think it's dangerous to infer too much about the motives of the Dunlendings or the plausible Dunlending-related people of late Tharbad on their ethnicity. Just going off known information, the Dunlendings were related not just to the aforementioned 2nd Age inhabitants of Minihiriath, who certainly had a problem with the Númenóreans, but to a bunch of other people as well.

For example, the Men of Bree were said to be akin to the Dunlendings, and although they seem to have forgotten who the Rangers were, they must have had better relations with them at whatever earlier point in their past when they settled in Bree. We know that the Bree-Hobbits, at least, settled Bree before Arthedain fell and it makes sense that the Men of Bree would have first moved there peacefully, whether it was during the rule of Arthedain or under the more informal days of the earlier Rangers. In either case, there is precedent in Bree for a Dunlending-related race of Tharbad citizens.

Also related to the Dunlendings were the inhabitants of the White Mountains. These people are an excellent example of how ethnicity isn't going to be a sure indicator of friendliness. On the one hand, the Dunlendic-people of the White Mountains were the source of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, famed for breaking their oath with Isildur. On the other hand, these are the indigenous people that populated Gondor and mixed with the Dúnedain producing the loyal Gondorian provinces that come to the aid of Minas Tirith during the War of the Ring.

Even looking at the Dunlendings themselves, it is significant that most of what we know of their history is tied to the Rohirrim--the Rohirrim, not the Dúnedain. While it is true that the last Gondorian keepers of Orthanc ended up being subverted due to their closeness with the Dunlendings, there is no reason to assume that the Dunlendings were duplicitous in cultivating this friendship--it seems far more likely that the Dunlendings were quite a bit more comfortable with the Dúnedain, who had never been a populous presence in Calenardhon than they were with the Rohirrim. Although their dislike of the Rohirrim was manipulated into war and although Gondor clearly valued its alliance with the Rohirrim above any interest in the Dunlendings, it is quite possible that Dunlendings themselves recognised a distinction between the Dúnedain and the Rohirrim, especially if they still had some contact with the Northern Dúnedain.

Certainly, if we accept the conventional guesswork that the Rangers of the North had their base in the Angle, the Dunlendings would have been quite close enough to their settlements for some occasional contact, especially if Tharbad survived as a mixed Dúnedainic-Dunlending settlement, akin to Orthanc in its last, pre-Sarumanic days--but not corrupt. At the very least they might have felt about the Rangers what the Bree-Men thought, which is different from their treatment of the "Strawheads."

[lindil]

A few points of disagreement, though I think I share something of your general assessment.

Bree was settled BEFORE Arnor, pretty darn sure. Like Bombadil.

The Dunlendings were a group in direct descent from the original edian of the region, according to UT were subject to deforestation and other forms of tyrannical behaviour from the Numenoreans, and during the Black Years when Sauron was in Numenor it was probably as bad as we can imagine.

THEN the Rohirrim came and could only have made matters worse. In all of JRRT's communites we see long racial memories. The anger at the 'strawheads' was visible becuase Saruman had stoked it, but UT and I think 'rivers and beacon hills of Gondor' make plain the animosity towards Numenorean abuses.

True it is speculation, not sure there is any danger though.

Someone left the town, it was a strangely situated between many other communites, Fisherfolk on the coast [pretty sure they were Druedain, but need to check UT], the secret dwelling upstream of Tharbad of the chieftans, and Rivendell further up than that, which does make a natural passage of sorts. The Dunedain, would have been there at least as much as they were in Bree.

So I guess where we may agree is that there were locals who were of dunlendish/breesih type extraction who may or may have not been more or less native to tharbad. If they existed they are never mentioned. All other groups are.

It does make sense that as Cardolan [and later the chieftans/rangers] dwindled they would coalesce around what was left. Tharbad was left till Bilbo's youth, and the secret dwelling 150 miles or so from Rivendell and 150 from Tharbad was left., and it was the South 'border' of the Rangers patrol zone...all else is speculative...