They Shall Not Pass! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 02-20-2012, 09:49 AM

Rune reminded me of this yesterday!

I had been looking into some of the history of the Battle of Cable Street (which took place in 1936 in London's East End) and one of the things that struck me was how the massed ranks of anti-fascists used the refrain No Pasaran! Which as Rune states translates into They Shall Not Pass.

I didn't realise, though, just how famous this phrase is. It was indeed first coined in WWI, but mostly at the time used by the French. The real fame of the phrase came about because of use at both Cable Street and the Siege of Madrid, which began earlier the same year - No Pasaran! was so well known that when Franco finally led his fascist forces into Madrid, he declared 'Hemos pasado' (I have passed).

And it's still in widespread use today, including by those who stand against the EDL in England. It is indeed so much more than a simple command, it's a rallying cry and I have no doubt Tolkien would have been very much aware of it. I'm quite pleased about this, following on from accusations from less well-informed types that his work is 'fascistic'. Anything but.

Galadriel55 · 02-20-2012, 10:50 AM

Just want to point out that although "you shall not pass" is the way we remember the phrase, and this way it sounds more majestic - and this is the one used in the movies - Tolkien wrote "You cannot pass".

Would this affect the debate?

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

blantyr · 02-20-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact.

Not quite a statement of fact. A prophecy, perhaps. Same thing, maybe.

Before many of the major confrontations in LOtR there is an exchange of prophecy. "You shall have neither the ring, nor me." "Fall back into the abyss that awaits you and your master." "This is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now, and curse in vain!" (A cock crows, indicating sunrise, beginning a new hour.) "No mortal man may hinder me." "But no mortal man am I!" "If you touch me ever again, you will be cast yourself into the crack of doom." (Dumbest prophecy of all of fantasy!)

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!" ARGHHHH! Absolutely the wrong thing to say in Middle Earth! The screenwriters absolutely and positively didn't get it.

Grumble...

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

Galadriel55 · 02-20-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blantyr

If you don't pay careful attention to the exchange of words before confrontations, you miss a good part of the magic in the books.

Very true.

Quote:

Anyway, in the movie, with the Nine in the ford advancing on Arwen, her line is to the effect of, "If you want the ring, come and take it!"

Isn't it something like "come and claim him"? Even worse! ("shoty! He's mine!"

)

Quote:

Prophecy. When one's life is on the line one might say something that will be true, but be very careful what you say. If there is a response that will pull the rug (or bridge) out from under you, you could get into trouble.

"On their deathbed men will speak true", per Brandir. When you're life's at stake, you don't know if this is it for you - the last chance to speak. Not only truth, but also foresight/prophecy.

Mithalwen · 02-20-2012, 02:57 PM

Galadriel is right.

It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you".

He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here.

Nogrod · 02-20-2012, 03:06 PM

Good points Mith & Galadriel.

But also, I think no pasaran! means more or less the same: "you are not getting through" (no passing). And the idea in the trenches must have been more or less the same as well.

Slogans like this seem to serve many purposes from the moral boosting of your own side to the intimidation of the enemy (or to the stating of a "fact"). But surely Tolien was familiar with it.

Nice spotting Rune!

Nogrod · 02-20-2012, 03:11 PM

Heh, just realised, that "you cannot pass" or "no pasaran" do not only mean what they say, that "you cannot pass", but even more like "over my dead body"!

And that I think is the emotion or stance Gandalf and the WWI trencehrs share with the anti-Franco troops during the 30's... they were ready to die though, unlike many modern day protestors using the "no pasaran!" -slogan...

Inziladun · 02-20-2012, 04:14 PM

This is an interesting thread, one I'd never found in all this time.

A lot of good points are here already.

I do think it's notable that Gandalf says nearly the same thing to the Lord of the Nazgûl, when the latter is threatening to ride into Minas Tirith.

Quote:

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf.

In both instances Gandalf seeks to bar a foe from getting by him, and uses similar verbiage.

I don't think there was any connection between Gandalf's words and generic partisan-speak, at least not in Tolkien's mind.

Lalwendë · 02-20-2012, 03:10 PM

Makes no difference what the nuances of English make it. And I should know

It's still No Pasaran! or on ne passe pas!.

A very famous and powerful command to a force of evil that it is going no further.

02-20-2012, 09:49 AM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Rune reminded me of this yesterday! I had been looking into some of the history of the Battle of Cable Street (which took place in 1936 in London's East End) and one of the things that struck me was how the massed ranks of anti-fascists used the refrain No Pasaran! Which as Rune states translates into They Shall Not Pass. I didn't realise, though, just how famous this phrase is. It was indeed first coined in WWI, but mostly at the time used by the French. The real fame of the phrase came about because of use at both Cable Street and the Siege of Madrid, which began earlier the same year - No Pasaran! was so well known that when Franco finally led his fascist forces into Madrid, he declared 'Hemos pasado' (I have passed). And it's still in widespread use today, including by those who stand against the EDL in England. It is indeed so much more than a simple command, it's a rallying cry and I have no doubt Tolkien would have been very much aware of it. I'm quite pleased about this, following on from accusations from less well-informed types that his work is 'fascistic'. Anything but. __________________ Gordon's alive!

02-20-2012, 10:50 AM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,511	Just want to point out that although "you shall not pass" is the way we remember the phrase, and this way it sounds more majestic - and this is the one used in the movies - Tolkien wrote "You cannot pass". Would this affect the debate? In a way, Gandalf is not intimidating or uplifting moral or summoning strength or etc. He's stating fact. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

02-20-2012, 02:57 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Galadriel is right. It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you". He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

02-20-2012, 03:06 PM	#6
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Good points Mith & Galadriel. But also, I think no pasaran! means more or less the same: "you are not getting through" (no passing). And the idea in the trenches must have been more or less the same as well. Slogans like this seem to serve many purposes from the moral boosting of your own side to the intimidation of the enemy (or to the stating of a "fact"). But surely Tolien was familiar with it. Nice spotting Rune! __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

02-20-2012, 03:11 PM	#7
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Heh, just realised, that "you cannot pass" or "no pasaran" do not only mean what they say, that "you cannot pass", but even more like "over my dead body"! And that I think is the emotion or stance Gandalf and the WWI trencehrs share with the anti-Franco troops during the 30's... they were ready to die though, unlike many modern day protestors using the "no pasaran!" -slogan... __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

02-20-2012, 03:10 PM	#9
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Makes no difference what the nuances of English make it. And I should know It's still No Pasaran! or on ne passe pas!. A very famous and powerful command to a force of evil that it is going no further. __________________ Gordon's alive!