They Shall Not Pass! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 02-20-2012, 02:57 PM

Galadriel is right.

It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you".

He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here.

02-20-2012, 02:57 PM	#10
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Galadriel is right. It is a statement of fact. Tolkien of all people knew how language worked. There is a big difference between can, may, shall, and will to those who care about such things. There is a huge difference in meaning between "I shall be drowned and no one will save me" and "I will be drowned and no one shall save me" - but I suppose not everyone notices now. Presumably they didn't have the sort of teachers who would respond "I am sure you CAN go, they question is "may you". He is talking about the present moment not some future event. It is just Top Trumps and Gandalf wins. He is "hoist by his own petard" but it does not stop it being factual. There is none of the "promise, command or threat" that would be intended by the use of "you shall". Nor is it the simple future of "you will" not the question of permission linked to "you may"... just you are not able to pass, because I am here. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace