They Shall Not Pass!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And in all cases you can also see it as an incantation - in the supernatural sense, or just as giving a boost of morale to your troops, sharing the shared mission, or trying to weaken the opposition with a threat.

Yes, ultimately it is Word of Command. It's not just Gandalf saying "Oi! Get lost!" It's Gandalf saying something very powerful. He's isn't just laying down the law to the Balrog, he is also making it so just by saying it and that's exactly how No Pasaran! and On ne passe pas! were used. There's no doubt that someone caught in a real world siege/fighting a terrible enemy and Gandalf would have the same determination.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think there was any connection between Gandalf's words and generic partisan-speak, at least not in Tolkien's mind.

He would have known the phrase. It appears it was incredibly well known in the 1930s to the extent that he wouldn't have been able not to know it unless he lived in a cave - we know he was a voracious newspaper reader and events such as the Battle of Madrid were widely reported on in the British press. And I think it fits very well that someone who wrote about the ills of totalitarianism in Middle-earth chose to use that phrase. Tolkien even chooses to have Gandalf say it four times, and such phrases would be (and are) repeated in this way:

'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.
There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
'You cannot pass!' he said.

[Mithalwen]

I must admit I had never thought of it as other than the most appropriate bit of English for the situation but then History isn't my strongest suit. I am failing to think of an alternative that Gandalf would use.

Pass in itself is a word rich with meanings that resonate even in the strict context of the book.. just flicking through looking for a reference it is jumping out at me.

Black Riders passing through Bree, Galadriel passing the test and passing into the West, Legolas talking of Elvish perception of the passing of time, Frodo and Sam having to pass as Orcs, the passing of the Grey Company and the passage of the Marshes and no doubt many more that I can't think of at the moment (does anyone have LOTR on Kindle? ).

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

My question is this: Does Tolkien ever speak about whether this was his inspiration for Gandalfs "You shall not pass" and if not what do you think?

Do any of you think that Tolkien is making any point by using this phrase or did he just think that it was brilliant?

Given Tolkien's conservative beliefs, I doubt he was very admiring of Spanish socialists and communists.

Perhaps other inspirations, certainly.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Given Tolkien's conservative beliefs, I doubt he was very admiring of Spanish socialists and communists.

Perhaps other inspirations, certainly.

I'd never simply assume Tolkien would be afraid of 'reds under the bed', his views and his writing are much more subtle than that. He even expresses his own beliefs as vaguely anarchist in one letter. As a middle class Englishman, Tolkien would not have taken extreme views. However, the value of 'freedom' was one Tolkien would have admired, not least because as a Catholic he also stood well outside the British establishment view but also because of what was happening in Europe in the mid 20th century. This was the 1930s and no matter whether you were conservative or not, there was another axis people stood upon, whether you were pro or anti fascism - and people and politicians of all sorts of persuasions took stances that are surprising to our modern views (e.g. Churchill was all for appeasement at first, and that was not his only unwise viewpoint). And remember Tolkien had already lived through one war.

Given the context, and Tolkien's own complexity and resistance to being labelled, it's not at all to be dismissed that Tolkien might have been inspired by a catchphrase that was used in both a fight against a fearsome, regimented and totalitarian enemy, and in the trenches of WWI by the French. In fact it fits very well with his general dislike of oppressive regimes. It also can't be dismissed as coincidence, given that it is not just some throwaway phrase Gandalf utters, but used as a Word of Command several times.

Not to dampen Rune's 'find', but it seems a lot of other readers have picked up on it too as there's plenty online about this. I think whether you can see it or not depends on whether you can understand and accept the rich political complexities (far less affected by media stereotyping) that infused the society and times Tolkien lived through.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'd never simply assume Tolkien would be afraid of 'reds under the bed', his views and his writing are much more subtle than that.

Well, I never implied he was afraid of the Spanish communists; I said he wouldn't have admired them- especially after they started gleefully shooting priests during the Red Terror.

Humphrey Carpenter's biography of Tolkien gives a rather pertinent description of a man who was both conservative and approving of the gentry.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Well, I never implied he was afraid of the Spanish communists; I said he wouldn't have admired them- especially after they started gleefully shooting priests during the Red Terror.

I never did study the Spanish Civil War, so I don't know how it was viewed by contemporaries.

I believe that you are quite right that Tolkien would have had no sympathy for the red terror, that took place in the wake of the military rising. He probably wasn't too happy about the white terror either, but I wouldn't know.

The interesting question for me is how the conflict was portrait. I know that in socialist and communist circles it was portrait as the forefront in the struggle against fascism, famously motivating many to join the international brigades.

Did contemporaries see the republican cause as being equivalent of the communist/socialist cause?

If for example it was viewed as the struggle of a young democracy vs. a reactionary military, then the battle of Madrid would surely invoke more sympathy and remorse, even among conservatives?

This is all very speculative on my part...but I do find these links interesting and I really wish that it was a conscious choice on Tolkien's part.

[Lalwendë]

I did study it and was lucky enough to meet a veteran when I was 18. The feeling in free Europe at the time was that Franco/fascism was wrong. Dictator de Rivera had been brought down in 1930 and they had a nascent democracy, so Franco, backed by the other fascist regimes of Germany and Italy, was seen as a bully boy, potentially a threat. The British establishment did not get involved in the conflict, officially, but allowed people to freely go and serve, allowed weapons to be shipped to the Republicans, and took in large numbers of Spanish children.

Remember who was on the side of Franco and what British people in general, especially WWI veterans, might have thought about that fact. We won't ever know whether Tolkien had the phrase forefront in his mind for Gandalf, but given that he could have chosen from dozens, even hundreds of other phrases (I bet he had a thesaurus ), and chose something that famous...it's not to be dismissed. He'll have known what it meant and he didn't dismiss it. Put it this way, it was as well known as modern catch phrases like "We're All In This Together" or "Yes We Can!" and I'd certainly notice if I slipped one of those into a big moment in a story I was writing (and then go and grab a monster pot of Tippex if it was the former ). I didn't realise how well known it was until recently, which is what prompted me to resurrect Rune's thread.

Out of interest, one of Tolkien's former students, and one who held him in great esteem, joined the International Brigades - WH Auden.

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I must admit I had never thought of it as other than the most appropriate bit of English for the situation but then History isn't my strongest suit. I am failing to think of an alternative that Gandalf would use.

I am sorry Mith but I instantly got the view of Gandalf as Night Club Doorman saying 'You can't come in, you've got no pass......besides, you're wearing false wings'.

[Mithalwen]

Well that's the thing isn't it. I can't help thinking that it is too common a word to read too much significance into it...start subbing in alternatives and it does get bouncery or otherwise un-Gandalfy. What else is he going to say? "Over my dead body!"? ! "You won't get by me!"....

I can't help thinking that with Tolkien's feelings on allegory that he might have excised it had he consciously noticed the connection unless it was unavoidable that any alternative seemed "wrong" . As with the perceived religious reference I don't think it has anything to do with the capacity for comprehension of the reader but everything to do with the prior knowledge of the reader. You cannot recognise something you have never encountered before. People with no knowledge of theology or mythology won't pick up those connections, historical ignoramuses won't make this one.

Just as a side note the French version reminded me that words with the same origins don't always have exactly the same meanings in different languages and "passer" in French can be a "faux ami" - at least as far as exams are concerned!

[Morthoron]

I don't believe Gandalf would utter anything other than "You shall not pass!" It is formal, and it is almost biblical in intonation (THOU SHALT NOT!).

From a different angle, he is speaking to a fellow Maia, which is rather amusing: why would he be speaking in Westron?

[Mithalwen]

For the same reason Elfhelm swore in Westron when he tripped over Merry at the start of "The Ride of the Rohirrim" (unless Merry had quickly picked up enough colloquial Rohirric to understand '"dashed" tree roots...'and 'who left this blessed bag here are they trying to kill me?")...?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

For the same reason Elfhelm swore in Westron when he tripped over Merry at the start of "The Ride of the Rohirrim" (unless Merry had quickly picked up enough colloquial Rohirric to understand '"dashed" tree roots...'and 'who left this blessed bag here are they trying to kill me?")...?

No, I think it's a bit more egregious than that, Mith. Consider, Gandalf has of course been out and about among mortals for centuries, and can speak several languages fluently (including Warg ); however, to whom has the Balrog ever spoken to in the last several centuries, let alone speaking in a mannish language that was more than likely not in vogue when he went incommunicado at the end of the 1st Age? I suppose the Moria Orcs may have spoken Westron, but did the Balrog have a something akin to an Orkish Berlitz course, and did he even speak to the Orcs at all?