TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Might be that the Acolyte takes the Seer's place after the Seer is killed, OR takes a Wolf's place after the first Wolf (resp. traitor) is killed, to compensate?

That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Hmm. So I think the acolyte co-operates with the seer (I'm not sure it's wise to discuss the details) and may be turned to evil, more likely by wolves than by his/her own choice. So we should watch out for strange happenings in the narrations and generally be prepared for surprises in this game.

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's what I assumed, judging by the name of the role.

On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

On the other (metaphorical- I mean, these aren't the days of Utumno any more) hand, since the Acolyte is implied to be of a similar nature to the Seer... er... Envoy, there may be a possibility that they can dream for either side, either out of choice or through the cursed way.

Yes, that's what I had in mind, basically. But right, as Zil says, it's all guesswork. Won't harm us to have somewhere to start, though. At least there's something to talk about. That doesn't mean we should dwell on that topic for the rest of the day (or game). But I think for the start, and since we really don't know much, it is as good topic for posting as any. Eventually, it will became worn-out (and it's already becoming, I think, we've named a fair couple of possibilities, so if people in the future don't have any more new thougts to add, I suggest leaving that be), and then it will drift away on its own and some more "actual" issue will take its place. But the Day has just started.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Right. Without some more clues from the narration, supported by game events, this is all guesswork.

What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

Now that said, it's nothing against you in particular, Zil (even though I quoted your post) - I have experienced much stronger cries for "let's talk something!" (that said, I don't even know if that was your intention) who were annoying on top of that (and hypocritical - as such cries most often are). This is partially also kind of preemptive strike against such kind of behavior.

On a more specific topic, then - Lommy mentioned her hate for the random votes. And I must say I would agree. Of course, lot of stuff can happen and sometimes people are so puzzled that they are forced to vote randomly. Or, let me say: more randomly than they would like to. It happened to me too, last time I believe in my last game (some half a year ago, I think, or a bit less, four or five months maybe) - I felt I didn't have enough info to make a good decision, but in the end, I simply had to choose - based on something. But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that. Only if you come online ten minutes before DL and haven't played all day, I could understand that (but then I probably wouldn't vote, personally, for the sake of being responsible). But otherwise you could at least try to form an opinion based on something small - and later you can defend your vote based on that. Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it. But that means that you either don't care about the game at all, or that you don't want to be accountable for your votes - and there's only one role which does not want to be accountable for its votes: the baddies.

Enough of the long agitatory rant, I hope you got the point, for now, I will let myself rest, also in order to give people less stuff to read through. Ha, ha.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I like (insert sarcasm here) those proclamations, it is very nice and logical, but then of course comes the inevitable question: so what exactly do you mean by "finding the ones..." I mean, we are doing that, for sure, all of us (or: almost all of us, anyway). But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But until people start talking (probably about something else). You know, it's like the problem with the chicken and the egg... we have to start talking. - Yes. About what? - About catching Wolves. Yes. But how are we supposed to catch them when nobody started talking yet? - Well, we will, that's why we have to start talking. What should we talk about? - About catching Wolves, obviously. Okay. Let's catch Wolves. - Agreed. (silence)

Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).

So putting my two cents to the topic. I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has. That might just be enough "dreaming" to justify the parallel with the seer in the narration, and would also account for the randomness of the alignment of the role in question.

But whatever the role is, it looks like it would include a possibility for change in alignment or gaining a gift, whether chosen by the person or happening on her/him. The consequences would be radically different in the two cases.

Originally Posted by Legate of Khand

But "total random", as in, "I'll toss a coin", I believe is total blasphemy and people should be lynched just for that.
...
Your vote is your responsibility, and that's the main point of it - later, you can be judged based on how you have used it. Random vote has no responsibility in it, therefore, you are not accountable for it.

I think my position with this is quite well established among people who have played with me during the years...

I would put it in a bit more stronger terms, though. Declaring your vote to be random, you declare you are not going to stand behind your vote - and that no one should have a say in why you voted the way you did as that was "random". The point here being that "declaration of randomness" with which this sneaking away from responsibility happens.

Like Legate says, even if you have very little or nothing to go on with, you always have impressions, gut feelings etc. to work with. It's only the wolves who need to come up with invented grounds for their votes. And I do think here lies a big difference between goodies and baddies.

We all have these feelings of initial trust or suspicion because we don't know who is good and who is bad. But the baddies do not have them as they know things already. So whereas we can be honest with our feelings the baddies need to invent them every time they try to argue for their "suspicions" or tell about their "feelings"... (which they don't have). So accepting random-voting only aids the baddies and thus should be strongly disapproved, with the threwat of lynching I would say.

Having that kind of mood around is one of the best ways to force the wolves into the open with arguments (which are by definition always false). And that is what we need to do.


EDIT: Uh, did I write that post over half an hour? So X'd with a host...

[Boromir88]

Great. I come all the way from Far Far Harad, and now who is going to buy my lovely new stock of mumakil?

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).

[Galadriel55]

What? No one has done this yet? You bad, bad people, talking about the Alcolyte when there are spies around!

It was Rikae. How do we know she didn't kill Her Who Once Shined Brighter Than The Sun before closing the door again and putting up all that show?

It was Eruhen. Eunuchs are never up to any good.

It was Nog. Hear how he spoke at the palace doors? Must show respect, that one.

It was Inziladun and Boro. They have the means to bribe someone close to the Empress.

It was Lommy. She posted first.

It was Shasta. He's the one who spent a night by the Empress' bedchamber! He could have sneaked in and done the deed anytime during the night.

It was Greenie. Mayhaps she had a really poisonous snake bite Her For Whom The Stars Once Shined. And then stabbed Her, just to make sure, you know.

It was Bom. You never know with them beggars!

It was Sally, Steve, and Nate. They look oh-so-innocent (aka I can't think of a good accusation), but probably they are the most dangerous ones.

It was Pitch and Legate. Is it a coincidence that these two arrive at our Empress' court, and some days later She is murdered?

Lottie is clearly the alcolyte. She's a sorcerer's apprentice. Makes sense, no?

I could not have done the foul deed. If I was the murderer, that would have meant that I foresaw my role in choosing the occupation, which would imply that I'm a Seer. I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!


~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I know I promised to have a break for a while, but now that people came and said something... and it will be just short, I promise.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I see your point.

Mine was merely that I don't think speculation over the Acolyte is all that useful at the moment (though that could change later), and efforts toward finding the wolves should be the focus.

Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Acolyte could be something like that one role, what was it...Mythomaniac? Assumes the role of the person he/she "dreamed." If the Acolyte isn't counted in the tally that would make the Acolyte, at the moment, neutral. That is, the Acolyte will be serving his/her own designs for the time being, and until some choice of loyalty comes (if it ever comes).

And just as remark to the subject of the Acolyte, this would actually sound rather logical, out of the things we've mentioned this far.



EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and further

[A Little Green]

Almost did a Kath and forgot we're starting already..

Anyway - I don't think I have much to add to the talk about the acolyte. As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum. Legate raised a valid point about Inzil, and Gal's bantery post looks odd between serious ones, but that's more or less all I have at the moment.

[Bom Tombadillo]

*crawls into the discussion by way of wiggling his nose* Alms? Alms for the septuplegic? No? What about the arctophilic? Oh, fine. *grumbles* Stingy [insert obscure Haradrin invective here]. [/IC]

So. I'm two hours later than I expected, but there's not too much chatter yet.

Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.

On that note, I'm going to disappear until I can think of something interesting myself. *waves*

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sure. That was what I gathered. However, as you have seen in my point, it is very nice that you are saying that, but what do you mean by "focus on finding Wolves". Saying "we should be finding Wolves" and finishing the post with that is probably the worst thing one can do. "What you are doing is not exactly what we should be doing, but I am not doing anything else either, I merely dismiss what you are doing but don't do anything new myself." I would therefore urge (if it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts) everyone who says "we shouldn't focus on this and that" not only to say what we should focus on (catching wolves, we ALL know that, of course, once again see what I said in my previous post, what else are we here for? Does anybody seriously think we are here to discuss Acolytes???), but MOST OF ALL to actually DO something, too, and not just talk how things *theoretically* should be done.

Yes, I know. All I meant was that, while I don't think the subject of the Acolyte is worthless (if for no other purpose as a conversation starter) it doesn't need to be the focus. The Acolyte discussions can only be taken so far right now.

[Galadriel55]

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

I know I'm being a hypocrite, since I don't have any better ideas myself. So far nothing of weight arose. I'll post here first thing if I get some innovative thought, I promise.

So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.

Edit: xed since Lottie at #25. Did it really take me that long to write this?

[Eönwë]

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

edit: fixed grammar

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This looks like the kind of Day One that is spent discussing what should be done on Day Ones.

When isn't that the Day One?

I have a set-in-stone Day One routine.

1. Make banter and joke about any previous banter that occured before arrival.

2. Comment on game dynamics, and possibly unique situations. Our departed Empress left the Acolyte role vague. While it's rather fruitless to discuss the specifics of the role, it's nice to get some ideas kicking around, and that's really all I've seen from the Acolyte posts. It's a mysterious role, it's begging "hey use me as Day 1 conversation ice breaker!" Like banter posts, it may carry on a bit too long, but there shouldn't be a set schedule. I mean, just because someone comes in later doesn't mean he/she doesn't have the right to share opinions on the Acolyte.

Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role.

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list). And everyone else is thrown in with not enough of an impression yet/could vote for today.

Like all Day 1s, we leave today without a crippling seer/gifted lynching (and because of these rules, no multi-lynching, please) we'll be ok.

I should also say because the DL doesn't fit my schedule well, I'll most of the time probably have to vote 5-6 hours early. So, whoever is able to keep around at the DL...with double-lynching a factor, please stop this trend of "keep my vote until the last possible second" vote flurry.

[Pitchwife]

So with no better security than this, you southron Barbarians think you can tackle Gondor? Pathetic. You'll need all the help you can get from the Dark Lord. [/IC]

I see there's some speculation about the Acolyte, as was to be expected. The narration seems to indicate that they somehow partake in the Envoy's investigation, like Lommy and Legate have guessed, and I think there's also a hint in the term itself: an acolyte (according to wikipedia) is an assistant to the priest and may be aspiring to priesthood himself but hasn't attained it yet - which is why I think they can't dream on their own, but rather are let in on the Envoy's dreams somehow, more or less like Legate has suggested.

Another possibility would be that the acolyte doesn't have any powers to start with but gains them during the game - possibly when they pick their allegiance (if they do that by choice). Or maybe they inherit the Envoy's dreams (and/or power of dreaming?) in case of his death? That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

EDIT: and Boro and G55. Stop frowning.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against?

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

(x-ed with Legate and Zil)

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!

Yes you can - if you're a turned acolyte. Maybe.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yeah, but the wolves are also listening. Personally, I don't want to give them ideas about how to strengthen their side.

I see the point, but not so much the danger. At this stage, our hypotheses are most likely to be off the mark or at best incomplete, and in the end it comes down to how the Acolyte really works, not how we or the wolves think we can use them. In the meantime, I'm sure the wolves don't want to give us ideas either, so they (or some of them) might be trying to avoid the discussion. See my point?

Originally Posted by Nog

I think we have yet another possibility, which is the age-old "birthday dreamer" role. There a person picks someone fex. on N3 and gets the role that person has.

The birthday dreamer I remember just got a dream on a predetermined Night, without any role change involved (right, Lottie?). Otherwise, this is basically the same as Boro's mythomaniac, which looks like a coherent theory to me.

Originally Posted by Lottie

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?

Yes. I pray for it every night before I go to bed. Don't you?

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).


EDIT: x-ed from #34 down.

[Eruhen]

Grief for the death of our fair Empress has consumed me, along with preparations for her pyre. Vengeance, however, is not far off. Let the Northern devils beware! [/IC]

In all honesty, though, Real Life has kinda gotten in the way so far, plus I have nothing of content to say. While the speculation on the Acolyte is enlightening in its own way, for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...

[Galadriel55]

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

[Thinlómien]

So, copypasted from Nerwen:

A Little Green ––> Boro
Lottie ––> Lommy
Bom Tombadillo ––> Self
Galadriel55 ––> Lommy (2)
Inziladun ––> Eönwë
Rikae ––> Inziladun
Sally ––> Eönwë (2)
Eruhen ––> Lommy (3)

...nice. I don't know where all this suspicion on Eönwë came from (to me he looks pretty harmless this far), also I find the size of the bulk of suspicion piled on me (ok I'll phrase it less poetically next time!) confuses me too. I can understand Lottie, who's been suspecting me quite consistently (although misguidedly), an even G55 follows a sort of line of thought but Eruhen? Where did that come from? That was pure bandwagoning, methinks.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Lommy, which of my points seem "weird" to you?

Mostly it's this one: that the wolves would be afraid to give the villagers ideas. We have less knowledge than them (at least about who's who, possibly about the acolyte too if s/he's for example a sort of cursed), there's quite many more of us than of them and 90% of the time it's them who scheme and lie and do false reveals and stuff, not us. So it's unlikely they can accidentally give us ideas that we haven't thought of yet (because there are more of us thinking) and which we can put to use (because we are not likely to make some schemes including falsehoods that would profit from a prior speculation in any specific direction, also as we don't know who's who we have much harder time making a whole picture of the game). Furthermore, if a wolf said something that profited the village, s/he would immediately look more innocent to many, so it might even be a good idea for them. So I don't see why the wolves would be afraid of giving us ideas.

Then there's also your focus on mostly Legate-Zil back-and-forth (which ok maybe isn't a "point"), which feels sidetracked to me, maybe intentionally so. I don't understand how it became the major issue for toDay. (And this is not directed to just you, but to everybody.)

Originally Posted by Pitch

Legate, one thing I'd like to be clear about - if, as you say, you weren't accusing Zil when all this started, are you accusing him now or is your insistence merely scientific interest in his thought processes?

Originally Posted by Shasta

This is an awfully fervent announcement. I'm curious now, Lommy, of what you think of Bom's self-vote.

You need to ask? Sorry, Bom, but your vote was ridiculous. If you're innocent, you're just playing for the wolves by 1) intentionally voting an innocent, 2) making an enigmatic vote which makes it harder for us to figure out whether you're innocent or not. You don't always have strong suspicions but you always have some, and you just have to act on them and stand behind them, even though you are wrong sometimes. Voting randomly (including randomly voting self) is just cowardly. Lastly, a piece of advice - next time remember you might not have been in danger of getting lynched but making a vote like that may make that danger actual by making people want to vote you.

End rant. If I put my principles aside, Bom's vote is not really anything I can make conclusions on, because it all comes down to whether Bom would dare to do something like that as a wolf or not. I don't know him well enough to say. (In this kind of cases, though, I tend to give people the benefit of doubt ie. assume their daring.)

Originally Posted by Shasta

Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.

You quoted me yourself in an earlier post:

Originally Posted by me

I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, or Zil implying it's a good point.

To me, they both looked suspicious in the beginning.

Lottie for making a playful (and thus easy to drop) accusation - I don't care if it was a joke, what matters is that she said it and she can't have been unconscious of the fact that she was portraying in a suspicious light something other people may latch on later. I do the same sometimes, I see something that looks a little like a slip to me and that I find funny, so I jokingly quote it - but I wouldn't draw attention to it if I found it 100% unsuspicious. That's why I think suspicions like that are never fully jokes, even when presented playfully.

As for Zil, I thought he read Lottie's playful accusation as a good point and was commenting on that when he said that it has now be proven something can be made out of the acolyte discussion. Turns out I was wrong, and he was referring to something else, so my suspicion on Zil based on the Pitch-Lottie-Zil was totally misguided as there was no Pitch-Lottie-Zil incident (except in my imagination), it was only a Pitch-Lottie incident. However that doesn't mean I'm not suspicious of Zil in general, because he has been acting weird [use of word intentional ].


edit: xed with Shasta's last, Nog and Steve

[A Little Green]

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone.

I'm starting to notice a rather odd pattern concerning people's attitudes towards the back-and-forth between Legate and Zil. Looking at eg. the following quotes:

Originally Posted by Gal

So far the only thing that stood out even a milimeter for me is the exchange between Zil and Legate. While I understand where both of them are comming from, they are persistent.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

Originally Posted by Boro

Eventually these types of things, like banter, and discussing an unknown role weave their way out of the focus entirely by themselves. I mean what we were 2 hours into the day, with 4 people having posted, and Inzil was already declaring to move on from the Acolyte talk? As Legate said, great let us stop conversing and kicking around ideas about a mysterious role.

3. Find out who I like/trust. (No one at the moment). Find out who I'd prefer not to be lynched yet (Legate and Inzil top the list).

Originally Posted by Pitch, underlining mine

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

The problem with this is that Zil plunging headlong into a D1 discussion with arguments left right & center is about as likely to happen as Bom starting D1 with a Nogrodesque rallying speech. He has this style of hanging back, observing and biding his time early in the game, and whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong.

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.

I have a cheesecake and a birthday present to finish, but before I move on to either of those - Gal: a hug. That is all.


EDIT: x-ed with Rikae

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Just to clarify my feelings about Rikae: I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question. I might have gotten carried away in expressing my feelings, but they are what they are and I'm not gonna hide them, even if someone might not like them, and some 4 people would gladly use use them against me.

I was actually going to tell Rikae, I don't think she's played with you before and your early posts are a standard G55. Granted, that means you would also do it as a wolf, but I appreciate the variety you bring to the table. How dragging and teeth-gritting would a village full of Legates, Nogs, and Boros be?

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

And this:

I am not saying that I think she's a wolf/spy; in any situation I can't claim such so early on based on so little. I am just mad, because of the way she phrased her question.

"If you suspect her, than say so," but honestly, you're just using the semantics over question-phrasing to defend your reaction as perhaps over-the-top, but an un-wolvish one. So, I'll say it. Looks suspicious.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent. I don't know if I have anything here, but it stood out to me.

It's truly not WW until there's at least one Agan-Boro dance, right?

Although, I'd hardly say Legate and Inzil were as stubborn and aggressive as I was being with Agan, certainly as far as early day activity they will be getting the majority of the attention. Good observation, and what to make of it is the question. And now, add Greenie to the list of those who I'd prefer not to see lynched today.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I meant to start this post by asking if there was something I missed that would explain the three rants about the evil of random votes, but since I don't seem to be the only baffled one, I gather there wasn't. Not sure if it means anything, it probably doesn't, but that conversation seems both uncalled-for and overdone.

So three people saying they don't like random votes is bad, but three people saying that they don't like people complaining about random votes is fine?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

What strikes me is that everyone of them is doing more or less what Pitch here describes - himself included! That is, keeping the Zil-Legate-issue in the spotlight while at the same time implying that it isn't really relevant, or that both two look innocent.

That's not what I was saying though. I was saying that their discussion is important because of its effects, namely the bandwaggoning others.


Are all of these really necessary? (Note: all underlining mine)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I add my voice to those who prefer not to waste time speculating about the Alcolyte, but there isn't much else to talk about, so what choice do we have, until some better idea enters someone's mind?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

As Inzil said, it's only speculation at this point - but incidentally, I'm really happy we had it as it cut the banter to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Bom Tombadillo

Now. I think all the speculation about the Acolyte is a bit pointless - there's absolutely no way of knowing, yet, what (if any) theory might be correct. That said, G55 is right - there's naught else to talk about, and it might at least lead to something interesting.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Exactly. As long as there is some even half-serious discussion one can start forming opinions, looking for possible motives behind the talk etc. So talking about the Acolyte serves as a subject in the beginning as any subject. We'll get into the discussion of each other soon enough, I hope. But not without something to discuss first (unless someone starts throwing strong random suspicions around - which I kind of dislike even if it sometimes actually works).

Originally Posted by Loslote

The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there.

On the other hand, considering that all of these except for Lottie's were posted before Inzil's:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

They don't look as bad as they could. But still, there's definitely overworking of the same point over and over again. Basically, Legate had already said it all in his first post on the matter, but because Inzil still argued back, I suppose they were justified in it, just not to that extent. So I rescind some of my suspicion. And I'm wondering what Inzil thought Legate was getting at before that post if not the same point everyone was belabouring to such an extent until then.


And this still means that Lottie looks bandwaggony, and without a good excuse, since it was definitely and definitively resolved by that point, considering that everyone present except Pitchwife and Boro (on which note, Boro has actually said very little of actual substance so far) had voiced their opinion that any discussion was better than no discussion.

Though the way G55 and Bom phrase their point, i.e. "it's basically pointless, but..." don't seem that great either.


edit: x-ed since Legate's list.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eruhen

for now I'm simply content to sit and watch.

Just wanted people to know that I'm here and paying attention. Now, back to work...

Am I right in assuming that Eruhen is playing her/his first game here? If that is the case, I will not wish to vote for her/him toDay, but I would like to give her/him an advice: even if the way you post isn't more suspicious than not, it is deeply annoying and doesn't help a bit. And even if laying low behind the "talkers" is generally more safe for a wolf than being the talk of the town, it can backfire as a plan as well. And we rest would very much like to hear what you think (or what you would wish us to think that you think) and not just nod for "yes, s/he's paying attention, great!".

Happily most of the people have been playing differently from Eruhen, and as someone already noted, this looks like one of the most reasonable D1's in a long time. I'll try to come up with a list of thoughts in the coming few hours (Champion's League football match between Napoli and Chelsea starts in a moment and will take part of my attention to be sure). And I should have ample time after that...

Just a few short comments on recent debates and posts,

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

Lottie may be trying to do her best to find something (anything) suspicious in which case she should be honoured for what she does, but then again I'm not too comfortable with the way she has acted thus far (I'll read her more closely later to try and see whether my spine-reaction has any merit or not).

I think Greenie might be up to something with her suspicion on the behaviour of some with the Legate - Zil -discussion.

Something bothers me with Pitch. There was something early on and now this latest discussion Greenie pointed out... I hope I can say something about what it is when I'm back.



This must be a record game in what comes to people playing against what they themselves declare is reasonable ... and being conscious of that so far as to admit it!


EDIT: Okay, Eruhen is no first-timer then = X'd from that post onwards.

EDIT2: And Eruhen is a he. Thanks.

[satansaloser2005]

What is this madness?!

No, seriously, I need to read this all on my laptop so I can make more sense of all the ranting and such. I will be here more (read, at all) toDay, but I'm still at work and I have a busy evening, so please bear (or bare, if you really must) with me. I'll be back later, but I hate being resounding silence, even if I don't presently have anything to say. That will change this evening.

Or, as they say in Limerick....

Miss Sally was checking the thread
And on it nothing she said
For she had no time
To argue or rhyme
Lest Sally end up truly dead

[Rikae]

Pitch, just because Legate said it first does not make it an insincere suspicion on my part. If it seems "easy", that's because there is fairly little to examine at this point (note, though, his response to me where he assumes I agreed with him - apparently he didn't read my post very thoroughly but rather jumped to self-defense right away).
I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Galadriel, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can be insensitive at times. However, if you'll look again at my post, it implies just as much about Lottie and her consistency as it does about you, and as for

If you don't like the way I post, say so.

... I did.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, nice enough time for me to actually start getting impressions about people, which is especially welcome because I often have problems with Day 1s (well, who doesn't). This far however, many of them are impressions that have nothing to do with the actual suspicion of some person: some of them are more like questions about something which I do not understand about the person and it does not have to be evil or good, only strange - and therefore I would like to see it explained.

People who seem genuine to me this far ("genuine" does not necessarily equal "innocent", but at least this far I have no reason to suspect those people):

Rikae - looks straightforward, I can follow her line of thoughts, no problem, does not seem to be manipulative in any way etc.

Nog - looks like his classic self, this far same as above. Although I would like to read more from him in the future, but I am sure there will be something, so I don't worry about that.

Eruhen - not very much, but just from the small post of hers, the feeling is okay. Of course, that might completely turn around once she posts something of substance. This is more like the first impression (and therefore I am not putting that much weight onto it, but if e.g. there were no more posts from her today, this is where I am).

Btw: I haven't been playing for a while, but - I assume we don't have any complete newbies in this game? At least I assume it would be seen on the admin thread...

G55 - I am not saying she could not be questioned, however, from the general behavior I tend to see her as not pretending anything, e.g. her first post just being that of a person who would like to contribute but honestly cannot think of anything clever (compare with: Inzil, below).

Eönwë - seems also more or less genuine to me this far. Will wait for further posting, but up to this point, no problem, nothing suspicious or awkward.

And here we are sliding a bit among the "decision still has to be made..." kind of people...

Lommy - well, to be honest, she could be fake. However, I can relate to what she says - the only question is whether it isn't calculated; but I hope to see more from her.

Boro, Pitch - well, they don't look any suspicious this far, but there is still a lot to determine. I will wait. The more, hmm, complicated players, the more time the analysis requires

Somewhat fishy:

(Originally, I had Greenie here, because her post initially left me with the impression that she seemed to "accuse" or try to "draw accusation" from what I said about Zil and her remark about G55. However, on second reading - sort of "reading it in different tone" in different situation, it looks absolutely normal. So basically, I wait to read more from her.)

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.

Lottie - This is also more like the above case. In fact, it is only the sort of a bit "accusatory behavior" she has which makes me raise eyebrows (but nothing more) and then I don't completely understand the "saying random votes are bad is useless" - I mean, why not? I think it's more substantial than Acolyte speculation, after all; and no, of course nobody expects people to start defending random votes, however, there are people among us who CAN very well cast random votes, and the point of this (at least from my part, but I am rather certain it was also Lommy's and Nog's intention, since that seems obvious) was to warn those people and to prevent random votes from actually happening. But yeah, whatever.

I think I left out somebody - I think Bom also posted - but I got absolutely nothing from that post, so waiting for something more. Please, more posts!

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie

[Galadriel55]

@Legate: no, there are no complete newbies this time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

And I was fine with the discussion at first, but what I didn't want was for people to keep speculating about the Acolyte indefinitely.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

Indeed...

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But I'm curious, Zil, what did you have in mind?

Since it's already going on, I see no need to spell it out.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Now, to get down to business, the most interesting thing that has happened so far is between Legate and Zil. Legate is of course right that saying "But we have to catch wolves" is a) easy and b) doesn't achieve anything in actually catching them [plus c) it's more or less saying "look how determined I am to catch wolves, I can't possibly be one"], and also in criticizing Zil for keeping aloof of the Acolyte discussion without suggesting an alternative.

See above. Once people left off guessing about the Acolyte, the alternative began to come to the forefront. I may seem cryptic, but it really is pretty clear.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That said, Legate's criticism of him looks innocent to me (and the vehemence with which he pursued it just feels un-faked), but I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).

Unless Legate is a baddie smelling an easy lynch. However, I do agree that others are more worrisome than he.

x/d with G55 and Boro

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand: repeating this "we should focus on..." argument, but even after saying he understands me (which I believe he does), he fails to understand(??? can't think of other reason) that he is doing nothing!!! I mean, to post one post where you say "we should focus on..." and not adding anything, fine. But when somebody mentions that it is not very productive to just say it and do nothing else - and especially if you actually say you acknowledge what that person had said - and still keep only doing the same thing, posting the one-liners about the same thing... and you obviously are around and have time to post, so why not do more? I can't think of a reason why Zil is doing that, being he innocent or not. So, Zil: Why, since you have been around for several hours, you did not manage to actually post anything but only the same line four times over? Since you were so keen on starting hunting the Wolves??? That is a genuine question. I am puzzled, honestly.

This.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That would of course be shiny in case we manage to lose our Seer early.

Manage to? Is this something you're hoping will happen?

[Inziladun]

This kerfluffle over the Acolyte does serve another purpose, I see. Interesting.

[Rikae]

It seems to me that with the relatively high number of wolves in this village, the acolyte is more likely helpful than harmful. Thing is, from the description, the two possibilities that come to mind first for me: a sort of seer-werebear and a seer-cobbler (partial seer or weak seer)- would complicate matters more for the village. Of course a normal werebear would reveal itself by toMorrow. Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

EDIT: X'd with Inzil and fixed typo.

[Loslote]

The Acolyte conversation does have its uses. We can look back at what everyone said and their reactions to other people's posts and start from there. What doesn't help is ranting about random votes. We all know that random votes are annoying, useless, and even detrimental to the village. We didn't need three people to rant about it in order to figure this out. The rants take up post space, making the ranters look like they're posting a lot, but they're very safe in that no one will argue with them, and they can't tell us anything about the poster or about people responding to them since the only way to respond to them is another rant saying the same thing or a rant saying that random votes aren't that bad - which I can't see anyone actually posting. It had its purpose among the first couple of posts, when it was basically the same, practically, as banter, but we've moved past that by this point. So...yeah, stop with the ranting about points that were never in dispute, please.

[Rikae]

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind. If someone were posting exclusively random-votes warnings and threats, I might agree with you Lottie - or if, from what I'd seen in the past, I shared your optimism about everyone refraining from declarations of randomness without such warnings.

Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

EDIT: X'd with Galadriel & Steve

[Eönwë]

And I just realised that I missed out Lottie's post, where she says what I said about the acolyte discussion about the random vote discussion. And yet, ironically, she says that the acolyte discussion is useful and explains why, when even more people have just been repeating the same points about that over and over again.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

On discussing random votes... Lommy first mentioned it (in ALL CAPS) without taking much space for it, and Legate later elaborated on it a great deal, and then Nog rehashed it as well. Thing is, Legate and Nog are pretty wordy guys at any rate and I don't think they were hurting for posting material so much as having a habit of posting on (almost) every topic that comes to mind.

I think Lommy's post is understandable - it was at the very beginning of the Day and it was more useful than banter, which was the other option at that point. But just because Legate and Nog are typically wordy doesn't mean Legate had to elaborate on that to such great extent, and it definitely doesn't mean Nog has to post the exact same thing as Legate already has.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Anyway, there's too much confusion: though I agree with Legate on the importance of simply starting conversation, it's time we moved on. In that vein, I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

Ah. You agree with me, but you don't like my "empty" posts. Makes perfect sense.