TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Two more things. Sally looks actually rather fine to me now, and while I am slightly suspicious of Lommy, I would not want to lynch her toDay. Also, now looking at the tally, I seem to have missed Eruhen's vote and his reasoning for it. Need to check back.

Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Don't bother, there was no reasoning (none at all). And why not vote me if you find me suspicious?

Yes, I just saw it, so now I understand why I haven't noticed it, since there is no explanation at all. I wouldn't mind that vote if it wasn't a part of this (currently biggest) bandwaggon.

I don't want to vote you now because I have better subjects to vote. I suspect you only a little, I said. Putting aside the reasons like that it won't be nice to vote you out since it's your first game after a while (and recalling stuff like last time Sally was lynched on her deathday etc), I maybe also wouldn't mind that much if the bandwagon for you did not look (especially with this random Eruhen voting) like some "save private Boro" attempt. Namely Boro would be one of these more likely candidates for voting (or in fact, THE candidate - I think I am going to vote him, not sure if there's anybody else, if I don't count Eruhen now or something, but then I'd like to hear his explanation etc first...)

[Thinlómien]

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it's not just something like "because it's your first game in a while" (as if I couldn't join the next one) or "because it's your birthday (as if I cared)...

edit: xed with Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it's not just something like "because it's your first game in a while" (as if I couldn't join the next one) or "because it's your birthday (as if I cared)...

Although I do But yes, it is not the reason. I know better than that and I know that you wouldn't approve of such reasoning either

And good reminder, for mentioning it, Nog - G55 was also one of those who gave me pause related to their choice of votes - or debate about it (well, I wrote about it earlier) - and would also be probably higher on the suspicion list than Lommy.

EDIT: x-ed with Shasta

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by G55, originally quoted by Nog

The only other person that is closer to being a suspect is Lommy. I've said very little about her, but there has been some talk about her with which I agree.

This quote strikes me as terribly self-conscious. Why say "I've said very little about her" instead of "I have made very few suspicious observations of her on my own"? Innocents tend to keep track on what they have thought about others, wolves what they have said about others. I have to check the context of this because it basically rockets G55 towards the top of my suspicion list if the context doesn't clarify anything!

Although one point in G55's favour, Nog - innocents too need to find some people to vote for and sometimes it might feel as forced as it does when you're a wolf.


edit: xed with Shasta and Legate

[Thinlómien]

Shasta - I see your point but wouldn't that be just lynching Bom because his playing style is confusing? That'd be a little mean.

edit: why do I keep xing with one-liners and other short posts? Weird.

[Thinlómien]

And I checked, G55's comment about me does not have any special context that would make it look better, it's from her post where she contempletes who to vote.

So out of thos who have received votes this far, I'd prefer Boro or maybe Bom, and out of everybody G55 or maybe Eruhen (I give Lottie that she is consistent, and explaining Shasta where my suspicion of her came from made me think the whole Lottie-Pitch from her pov and thus made me feel a little better about her).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

What's odd about the timing? It's when I woke up to find that Zil had started a poorly-reasoned accusation of me.

It looks odd that it's only after you start getting suspected and voted that you suddenly suspect Inzil as much as you did in that post. If you just woke up to find that, it's less odd (I honestly have no idea what timezone you're in, haha.)

Originally Posted by Lommy

If I put my principles aside, Bom's vote is not really anything I can make conclusions on, because it all comes down to whether Bom would dare to do something like that as a wolf or not. I don't know him well enough to say. (In this kind of cases, though, I tend to give people the benefit of doubt ie. assume their daring.)

That's precisely the point!

Originally Posted by Lommy

To me, they both looked suspicious in the beginning.

Lottie for making a playful (and thus easy to drop) accusation - I don't care if it was a joke, what matters is that she said it and she can't have been unconscious of the fact that she was portraying in a suspicious light something other people may latch on later. I do the same sometimes, I see something that looks a little like a slip to me and that I find funny, so I jokingly quote it - but I wouldn't draw attention to it if I found it 100% unsuspicious. That's why I think suspicions like that are never fully jokes, even when presented playfully.

That's fair. But I'm not sure you realize that Lottie does that all the time. Again, that's getting into playstyle differences. But it's a point regardless.

Originally Posted by Legate

All right. But I sincerely doubt that was your original plan. Also, I recall you having this cryptic line "so it serves also different purpose, interesting..." or something along these lines

That line has since been explained. See Lommy and Zil's conversation.

Originally Posted by Legate

But it's also Bom and somehow I can accept this behavior from him. I would however strongly discourage this incident to repeat, especially not on further Day than Day 1...

And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.

Originally Posted by Legate

Well possibly I did not see or understand that when he had said it last time - you understand what my point was, do you? My point was that I wanted him to answer why he proposed something yet failed to act on it. It was not suspicious behavior, it only bothered me because it did not make any sense. What I saw was this: You preach something but you don't act upon it, somebody points it out to you, yet you reply again with preaching and doing nothing, and not even reply about why you don't do anything.

No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.

Originally Posted by Legate

For now (see above) I take Inzil's explanation now that he had stated himself clearly, however, I still don't trust him completely as I am not sure whether it isn't just a post-made-explanation (see above again), but right now I am putting the thing more in the "odd" shelf than into "wolf" shelf, but I might still be watching him.

Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Shasta - I see your point but wouldn't that be just lynching Bom because his playing style is confusing? That'd be a little mean.

No, it'd be a wake-up call. No one should be allowed to slip through without participating and voting. People can say "oh, well, they didn't deserve to win" all they like when someone who just floats through the game ends up living to the end (because if they're wolves no one wants to lynch them because of lack of evidence and if they're innocent the wolves won't kill them because they're not doing anything) - it doesn't change the facts that they won, and we let them by allowing them to do so.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And I checked, G55's comment about me does not have any special context that would make it look better, it's from her post where she contempletes who to vote.

Hm, yes, that one does look bad.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.

Yes, well, the proof lies right here, right... well I would go for that, if it comes to that, but if any of my "more actual" suspects (Boro, possibly now G55) seems possible to get lynched, I would prefer them.

No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.

Yes, I asked once again the same thing because it seemed to me he did not answer. As I said above, I think I've now said that a couple of times too already.

Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.

Well when I think of it, in some way I probably would: there is no explanation I can think of - after all, that's why I started asking him in the first place! I was hoping he has some explanation I did not think of, something logical. This obviously is not, or not entirely - well, what I said. But for now, it is all just one mark on his wall, so to say. I will see what he does otherwise.

EDIT: x-ed after Shasta

[Pomegranate]

Huh. Just finished reading all that has been said so far. First:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but could you clarify what you meant by the bolded bit?

On the only time I played with Nogrod, he was quiet during the first day and was killed on the night after that (hence “active Nogrod”). That is, I don’t know his “normal habits” in WW. However, based on what I know about Nogrod from other sources, I do believe he can sound genuine if he wants to, whether he is or isn’t, and because of that I don’t want to put him into any innocent-pile.

And my first post was mainly gut-feelings, stuff that came in mind while reading the whole conversation through, so I wouldn’t say “over-confidence”. But Boro is definitely acting differently than in the one game I played with him. I don’t think I even need to be particularly sharp to notice that.

I’ll be reading Legate’s posts over now, I think people have had valid points against him but I want to read his case through myself.

x/ed with Lommy's second and Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, with Lommy looking a little better now that I know where she was coming from re: Lottie, I'm going to put my money (or in this case, vote) where my mouth is.

++Bom

[Nogrod]

Well Shasta, you put us in dire straits as to whether act like we say we should act or hunker down wishing for a better result and ignoring the principle. I'm really torn with it. The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16, but you're right that if we don't do it toDay, we will be cursing it later (supposing he continues the same way) when we don't feel any more we can afford checking him.

On other thoughts. Despite my initial gut feeling about G55's outburst I'd say she's quite high on my list.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I didn't like the acolyte discussion because it meant everyone could hide under the veil of "This discussion is better than nothing, at least later we can look back on it" (see my earlier post). I'm still not sure what Inzil was getting at, but by reiterating his side so many times, he gave more justification for people to argue the side that already has general consensus, and so no, I didn't like that because it gives the wolves a place to hide.

That's as may be, but Zil's reiterating was prompted by repeated questions from Legate, so it seems unfair to blame him alone for the change in the discussion.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?

No, it doesn't, but poking someone again and again over a point so you can then complain that he's "reiterating his side" and starting a pointless discussion doesn't look particularly innocent either. OK, Legate did the poking and you the complaining, but you're using the controversy between them to paint Zil as suspicious by blaming the whole controversy on him, while it took two to keep it going. If you think this is misrepresenting you, so be it, but it's the best I have toDay.

Therefore,
++Eönwë

In other news, I'm not happy with Bom's Nilp-vote, quite happy with Lottie's rant defending herself against Nog, a little puzzled by this sudden Lommywagon, and too pressed for time to make up my mind about the rest. Á vala Melkor!


(EDIT: x-ed with the whole Bomwagon)

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Zil

Care to elaborate?

See my list (if you already didn't).

Public note to self (previously titled "not to self" due to a typo )
Nogrod looks slightly worse.
Boro looks slightly better.
Eönwë looks the same.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

That's true. Still I am not sure if I wouldn't rather use the fact that I actually have a decent enough suspect on Day 1 and vote for that one... also in order to make things clearer. Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).

But yes... it has some merit, because again, when, if not toDay? Hm, I have to think about this...

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy