Intellectual hooliganism topic: Middle Earth Archaeology - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Annalaliath · 03-02-2012, 09:06 AM

Actually I was thinking about a future culture doing the Archaeology in Middle Earth. I think I have to figure out the natural forces at work there and where good preservation would happen. Textiles generally don't preserve well. Those that do are under special circumstances. Those conditions that do lend to the preservation of the perishable materials such as bone, textiles, skins, wood, flesh, and other such things tend to be in an extreme of a kind. Permanently waterlogged, dry, cold and dry, frozen, or caves. Caves are great! I love caves.

edit: First you have to go out and do some survey. I also understand that Archaeology is a destructive science. That is why we pick and choose very carefully which sites we dig, because once it is dug all the prevariance is gone. Also, I am not talking about LOOTING, and I am assuming that the future culture is very similar to ours, with similar technologies.

Basically using modern technique to do the archaeology of Middle Earth. I also understand how the older cultures would see the old places as sacred, and there probably might be people in the new culture that would feel that way. There would have to be laws, and also a code of ethics.

Sorry for the rant.

Galadriel55 · 03-02-2012, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What? Good guys digging in Thangorodrim and Barad-dur? You sure you don't mean the bad guys? Why would the good guys get near such places if they didn't have to? Noo.

When they "laid bare the foundations" (or something that means this - I'm quoting from memmory) I assume they would actually go and destroy the foundations. The first time the Valar fought Morgoth they did not destroy Utumno completely. But they did so with Angband, iirc. Imagine what skeletons they found in the cells. Oooh, this one looks like a triceratops! And this one is definitely a meat eater - probably an allosaurus!...

Annalaliath: why don't you do some underwater digging in Numenor? It would have been permanently covered in water since the Downfall, it had some stone buildings so I'm sure not everything perished...

Or you could go exploring into the caves of the Goblins of the Misty Mountains... oh, well, bad guys again. Sorry.

Preservation, though... If you're looking at frozen, it's the Helcaraxe, or the Forochel. But the Helcaraxe was destroyed, at least partially, when Beleriand sank. Though if it didn't I bet you'd be able to find lots of dead Elves and some of the things they brought with them - The SIl mentions a few.

If you consider dry, that's Gorgoroth (more bad guys) and Harad (even more bad guys). Though you might want to search for Sam's pots and pans in Mordor.

Caves would be the Dwarven Kingdoms and the Goblin passages, both already mentioned.

I guess you just have to pick a certain region and think what objects could be found there, based on the people and the conditions.

Annalaliath · 03-02-2012, 05:26 PM

it depends on the material and the kind of waterlogged. Also, if this is far in the future of Middle Earth, wouldn't the cultures change a lot? Some of those old places of evil men may have changed. Again, the guys doing the digging could be a bit like Indiana Jones... and that opens up a whole can of ethics worms.

The place I'd be interested in would be the Dead Marshes. I wonder if they would still be marshes or would have changed over time. mmmm.

Galadriel55 · 03-02-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annalaliath

The place I'd be interested in would be the Dead Marshes. I wonder if they would still be marshes or would have changed over time. mmmm.

Oh that one's a treasure!

But then Gollum says that he couldn't touch the dead there. So are they really there?

The mention of Indiana Jones made me think of the Paths of the Dead. What secrets do you think they hold?

Annalaliath · 03-02-2012, 06:22 PM

They would hold scary things. lol. I need to read a few books.

Alfirin · 03-02-2012, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Oh that one's a treasure!

But then Gollum says that he couldn't touch the dead there. So are they really there?

That's a tough one, but my guess is "no".The Dead Marshes have some weird magic going on. The faces are described as "rotting" it think, but given the time that has passed, the faces in the dead marshes should be nothing but skeletons (if indeed still there at all). If the marsh is acidic and peaty, it could pickle the bodies but the water would likey then be too murky to see them. The faces are supposed to be mostly war graves as I recall (i.e. bodies that were actually buried, as opposed to simply left on the battle field). Even assuming that the modern "6 feet under" was practiced back then, the bodies would still be reachable by Gollum. Maybe not by simply sticking his hand in a pool, but Gollum, due to his long aquatic existance is (unlike normal hobbits) a good swimmer and diver; six feet would probably not trouble him much. If he says he can't reach them, they're probably illusions; or souls trapped in the land with all physical remnants rotted away, or Orc plundered (Orcs being orcs, I assume that if there was any good stuff left on the ground or in the graves,later orcs would have tramped in (maybe during the period before the marshes expanded, when the ground was still solid, and dug it all up. Orcs are not likey to respect burials).

Galadriel55 · 03-02-2012, 06:37 PM

You're right about the orcs, but I'm not sure if there were actually enough of them out there before the marshes came. It all depends on when the water came - before Sauron declared himself in Mordor and started building up his power, or after that.

Eruhen · 03-02-2012, 10:12 PM

Personally, I've always wondered this: what was behind that door Brego died trying to open?

03-02-2012, 09:06 AM	#1
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	Actually I was thinking about a future culture doing the Archaeology in Middle Earth. I think I have to figure out the natural forces at work there and where good preservation would happen. Textiles generally don't preserve well. Those that do are under special circumstances. Those conditions that do lend to the preservation of the perishable materials such as bone, textiles, skins, wood, flesh, and other such things tend to be in an extreme of a kind. Permanently waterlogged, dry, cold and dry, frozen, or caves. Caves are great! I love caves. edit: First you have to go out and do some survey. I also understand that Archaeology is a destructive science. That is why we pick and choose very carefully which sites we dig, because once it is dug all the prevariance is gone. Also, I am not talking about LOOTING, and I am assuming that the future culture is very similar to ours, with similar technologies. Basically using modern technique to do the archaeology of Middle Earth. I also understand how the older cultures would see the old places as sacred, and there probably might be people in the new culture that would feel that way. There would have to be laws, and also a code of ethics. Sorry for the rant. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!! Last edited by Annalaliath; 03-02-2012 at 09:37 AM.

03-02-2012, 05:26 PM	#3
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	it depends on the material and the kind of waterlogged. Also, if this is far in the future of Middle Earth, wouldn't the cultures change a lot? Some of those old places of evil men may have changed. Again, the guys doing the digging could be a bit like Indiana Jones... and that opens up a whole can of ethics worms. The place I'd be interested in would be the Dead Marshes. I wonder if they would still be marshes or would have changed over time. mmmm. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

03-02-2012, 06:22 PM	#5
Annalaliath Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 380	They would hold scary things. lol. I need to read a few books. __________________ Bloody Stumps!!!

03-02-2012, 06:37 PM	#7
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	You're right about the orcs, but I'm not sure if there were actually enough of them out there before the marshes came. It all depends on when the water came - before Sauron declared himself in Mordor and started building up his power, or after that. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

03-02-2012, 10:12 PM	#8
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Personally, I've always wondered this: what was behind that door Brego died trying to open? __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.