Unfinished Tales - Part Two - IV - The History of Galadriel and Celeborn - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galin · 03-11-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilettante

No one is going to mention the Elessar?

Well I wanted to be the first! but now...

Quote:

Or the debate whether Olorin brought back the original Elessar or Celebrimbor made a new one?

The Olorin version carries a somewhat outnocuous idea in my opinion, as I don't understand why Galadriel would need to consider the jewel to keep her land from fading -- or to help with this problem in some measure at least -- in the Third Age. I suppose one could argue that she, 1,000 or so years into the Third Age, was still reluctant to use Nenya for some reason, but that doesn't seem to sit well with Appendix B in my opinion.

And although there are several texts in this section which are characterized as rough drafts in the first stages of composition, following Christopher Tolkien's lead I also find it odd that Galadriel, co-founder of Eregion, would allow Sauron in, where Gil-galad did not. To my mind this seems to chip away at Galadriel's insight, or her esteem or power as ruler of Eregion -- granted we have the Mirdain eventually taking power, but that implies Sauron was allowed 'in' in order to cozen them in the first place (unless they were meeting secretly with Annatar, which isn't noted).

Perhaps this is partly why the idea was (if so) abandoned -- that is, if I'm right that it was abandoned.

Although I muchly enjoyed this section for various reasons, as far as calculating contradiction with already published texts goes, or sighting seemingly superseded ideas, or presenting possibly problematic notions, I have a number of questions with respect to some of these tales.

Guinevere · 03-14-2012, 05:01 PM

I must admit that it took some effort to reread the whole chapter with notes and appendices!
Though there are many interesting details, it leaves me rather bewildered with all those contradicting versions. (Marnie must have studied this very closely when writing her Celeborn & Galadriel fanfiction "Oak & Willow". Her version of Celeborn will forever influence my view on him!!)

I was very interested in more details of the hauntingly sad song of Nimrodel and Amroth, but the story is frustratingly incomplete (how could they get "separated" on the way to the haven? Where does Mithrellas fit in??)

I don't know which version of the origin of the Elessar I prefer, but I just love the conception of its inspiration having been sunlight shining through leaves. (I'm thinking of newly sprung beech leaves in spring - such a gorgeous colour!)

That Tolkien spends a lot of time pondering over Elven tongues and dialects is typical. But something has always bothered me about his concept: how can languages develop and even become extinct when the speakers are immortal?

Dilettante · 03-14-2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I must admit that it took some effort to reread the whole chapter with notes and appendices!
Though there are many interesting details, it leaves me rather bewildered with all those contradicting versions. (Marnie must have studied this very closely when writing her Celeborn & Galadriel fanfiction "Oak & Willow". Her version of Celeborn will forever influence my view on him!!)

I was very interested in more details of the hauntingly sad song of Nimrodel and Amroth, but the story is frustratingly incomplete (how could they get "separated" on the way to the haven? Where does Mithrellas fit in??)

I don't know which version of the origin of the Elessar I prefer, but I just love the conception of its inspiration having been sunlight shining through leaves. (I'm thinking of newly sprung beech leaves in spring - such a gorgeous colour!)

That Tolkien spends a lot of time pondering over Elven tongues and dialects is typical. But something has always bothered me about his concept: how can languages develop and even become extinct when the speakers are immortal?

Well, among mortals, language is constantly in flux. I would assume that immortals are no different.

From what little I know of linguistics, it may go something like this. Immortal Population 1 (the Silvan Elves for example) lives in an area. Immortal Population 2 (e.g. the Sindar, Noldor, ect.) move into the area and begin to integrate with IP1. Over time one of IPs decides the other IPs language is either easier to communicate with, or they just plain prefer it. After a while, everyone is speaking the language of one of the IPs and no one bothers to learn or speak the other language anymore. (Actually, what probably develops is a hybrid of the two languages.)

However, as concerned as some Elves seem to be about preserving "Old Ways" (Much that once was is lost and all that) you would think that they would be concerned with preserving their original language and it would be very hard for their languages to become "extinct". It could be that the language did not become "extinct" in the classical sense, but was known only by a few individuals who bothered to still learn and use it.

Galadriel55 · 03-14-2012, 06:25 PM

I agree, Dilettante. Languages change, go out of use, etc even within a lifetime. How I'd love to speak with Tolkien's choice of language, but people just would go "what the bananas?" because such expressions/vocabulary aren't used in day-to-day speech anymore. And it's a shame they aren't, really. But there's no to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Though there are many interesting details, it leaves me rather bewildered with all those contradicting versions.

Oh, I know exactly how you feel! My head went spinning with all the different possibilities. And at some point (not sure if it is in this chapter or a different one) when CJRT began saying "let's call this manuscript A and this one B...", by the time he got to D and started explaining chronology or some such he lost me completely.

On the other hand, I wasn't as fascinated by the details as I was by the story itself. I guess it is because you reread it whereas I read it for the first time.

Formendacil · 03-23-2012, 07:52 PM

Esty makes a good point about "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" having a strong similarity to "The History of Middle-earth," but while the resemblance is there, I feel that there are distinct differences. Perhaps the best way of thinking about it is that "Galadriel and Celeborn" (and, indeed, all Unfinished Tales) is the test version, the prototype. For one thing, Christopher Tolkien is a lot more comfortable here with abridging things, rather than giving the full text--there are a lot of out-of-context citations here. Some of the full texts made it into the HoME, some never did.

Tolkien's "deification" of Galadriel, if I may call it that, as she went from Last Noldorin Rebel to Generic Noldorin Rebel to Practically Not a Rebel at All, and the parallel process of Celeborn from Silvan/Nandorin Elf to Sindarin to Telerin, absolutely fascinates me. I like Christopher Tolkien's comment that these changes (I believe he's referring only to their last stage) were made for "philosophical rather than historical reasons" (I'm paraphrasing, but the phrasing should be close). Perhaps I should say "canonisation" rather than "deification," since late-stage Galadriel has been called a parallel to the Virgin Mary. Personally, I'm not sure that I *like* this saintly Galadriel as much as I like Galadriel the proud rebel who mellows with age. I think it's a better story if one prince of the Noldor, out of all the House of Finwë, actually lives long enough to change her pride than having one who was arrogantly innocent from the beginning.

That being said, I still like the idea that Gimli's request for strands of Galadriel's hair had a significant precedent in Fëanor asking for the same--but give me a break: if there's one chapter in Unfinished Tales that I'm allowed to cherry-pick preferences from, this is it.

Indeed, within the framework of Unfinished Tales, although this is the most unfinished and least tale-like of the collection, it's the lynchpin that holds the whole thing together as the story of Middle-earth. It contains most of the in-depth material we have that follows the Elves as they left a crumbling Beleriand and established the realms of Lindon and Eregion--and send princes into Lorinand and Greenwood--and possibly three ships to Dol Amroth. It's the only tale we really get of the Elven kingdoms of the Second Age, other than the fall of Eregion in the context of the Rings. With the Appendices to this chapter, we also get direct connections to the other 2nd Age tale, "Aldarion and Erendis" and prefigured connections to the Third Age tales via the excerpted histories of Gondor's rivers and the hazy boundary between Gondor/Rohan and Lórien.

03-14-2012, 05:01 PM	#2
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	I must admit that it took some effort to reread the whole chapter with notes and appendices! Though there are many interesting details, it leaves me rather bewildered with all those contradicting versions. (Marnie must have studied this very closely when writing her Celeborn & Galadriel fanfiction "Oak & Willow". Her version of Celeborn will forever influence my view on him!!) I was very interested in more details of the hauntingly sad song of Nimrodel and Amroth, but the story is frustratingly incomplete (how could they get "separated" on the way to the haven? Where does Mithrellas fit in??) I don't know which version of the origin of the Elessar I prefer, but I just love the conception of its inspiration having been sunlight shining through leaves. (I'm thinking of newly sprung beech leaves in spring - such a gorgeous colour!) That Tolkien spends a lot of time pondering over Elven tongues and dialects is typical. But something has always bothered me about his concept: how can languages develop and even become extinct when the speakers are immortal? __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

03-23-2012, 07:52 PM	#5
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Esty makes a good point about "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" having a strong similarity to "The History of Middle-earth," but while the resemblance is there, I feel that there are distinct differences. Perhaps the best way of thinking about it is that "Galadriel and Celeborn" (and, indeed, all Unfinished Tales) is the test version, the prototype. For one thing, Christopher Tolkien is a lot more comfortable here with abridging things, rather than giving the full text--there are a lot of out-of-context citations here. Some of the full texts made it into the HoME, some never did. Tolkien's "deification" of Galadriel, if I may call it that, as she went from Last Noldorin Rebel to Generic Noldorin Rebel to Practically Not a Rebel at All, and the parallel process of Celeborn from Silvan/Nandorin Elf to Sindarin to Telerin, absolutely fascinates me. I like Christopher Tolkien's comment that these changes (I believe he's referring only to their last stage) were made for "philosophical rather than historical reasons" (I'm paraphrasing, but the phrasing should be close). Perhaps I should say "canonisation" rather than "deification," since late-stage Galadriel has been called a parallel to the Virgin Mary. Personally, I'm not sure that I like this saintly Galadriel as much as I like Galadriel the proud rebel who mellows with age. I think it's a better story if one prince of the Noldor, out of all the House of Finwë, actually lives long enough to change her pride than having one who was arrogantly innocent from the beginning. That being said, I still like the idea that Gimli's request for strands of Galadriel's hair had a significant precedent in Fëanor asking for the same--but give me a break: if there's one chapter in Unfinished Tales that I'm allowed to cherry-pick preferences from, this is it. Indeed, within the framework of Unfinished Tales, although this is the most unfinished and least tale-like of the collection, it's the lynchpin that holds the whole thing together as the story of Middle-earth. It contains most of the in-depth material we have that follows the Elves as they left a crumbling Beleriand and established the realms of Lindon and Eregion--and send princes into Lorinand and Greenwood--and possibly three ships to Dol Amroth. It's the only tale we really get of the Elven kingdoms of the Second Age, other than the fall of Eregion in the context of the Rings. With the Appendices to this chapter, we also get direct connections to the other 2nd Age tale, "Aldarion and Erendis" and prefigured connections to the Third Age tales via the excerpted histories of Gondor's rivers and the hazy boundary between Gondor/Rohan and Lórien. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.