Suicide in Middle Earth

[Inziladun]

I'd recently thought of starting a thread on this topic, but a search of the forum revealed this more than adequate discussion on the matter.
A lot of good points have been made, but I had a couple of observations.

It seems to me that Tolkien had a general disdain for suicides committed by his characters, at least in LOTR. In earlier stories, Túrin and Húrin don't seem to bear the judgement of the author, or any other character, though maybe the fact that a representative of the Valar was not present to give any such judgement was the difference.
On the other hand, in LOTR we do see Gandalf severely disapproving of the actions of Denethor in the latter's self-inflicted death by fire.
There might seem to be a double standard, though, related to the same book.
In Letters #210 written in 1958, Tolkien had harsh words after reading a screenplay of sorts for an animated movie that was in the works. One of his criticisms had to do with the treatment of Saruman.

Z (the writer) has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason in making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its basest dregs was the sort of person he had become.

Tolkien almost seems to imply Saruman should have done himself in. Also, it's funny how he describes Saruman's chosen path using the words "cling to life": wasn't that a great sin of the Númenórean rebels? Is he saying Saruman's judgement might have been different if he had deliberately killed himself? Or is it merely a contrast to Gandalf, who didn't die by his own hand, but allowed the sacrifice of his mortal body in order to accomplish his errand?

On an unrelated note, I've wondered if Gollum's "slip" wasn't really a suicide, conscious or not. The suggestion could have been planted in his mind just before his death by Frodo.

'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

I can see Gollum welcoming death at that point, thinking that ultimately he had no hope in life, and seeing an out that would free both him and Frodo, whom he had gained at least some affection for. Was he deliberately careless after attacking Frodo, not concerned with his movements near the Fire? The book says his eyes looked up at the Ring as he took the fatal step. Simple Ring-lust, or a desire to have it be the last thing he saw as he fell? The book says he tottered on the edge, and wavered, but it doesn't look to me as if he really tried to save himself.

That's all just an idea, but I think it's interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Tolkien held the belief that Men have to be able to give up their life freely. Death was given to Men from Eru as a gift, but Morgoth turned into a curse, and people began to fear it. How wretched does life have to seem for a person to cast it away and seek solace in death? Pretty wretched. So in such a case Tolkien condones suicide, or at least does not condemn it. He makes us pity the character. In some cases, though... I guess I'll have to go over the cases/passages individually.

Miriel - that's not suicide. That's just death, as death is. When you have no strength - physical, emotional, spiritual, etc - to live, then guess what? You die. There's no suicide here.

Fingolfin - in a way you can call that suicide. Causing as much suffering to your foe - knowing logically that you cannot beat him, but fighting anyways - since you know (or think) you're going to die anyways, so might as well bring him down with you or cause as much damage as you can. The Sil says that "a great madness of rage was upon him", so he did not think logically, but man, you have to be completely cracked to think you'll make it alive. It's the causing-as-much-damage case. And it's absolutely condoned, even admired (not in the sense that you should do that, but it is deeply respected).

It's possible to make an analogy to Theoden, when he went into battle at Minas Tirith against overwhelming odds, to do the most while you still can. However, as hopeless as his case was it was not nearly as hopeless as Fingolfin's.

Nienor - she's the perfect case of what I said earlier. She was so horrified and distraught of what has been done to her life (what she has done to her life) that Tolkien makes us pity her. Or at least me, since I know in advance Zil will disagree with me about everything I say regarding that family . But looking at her you cannot say that she was a coward. It takes a good deal of gut to take away your own life. And the manner in which she did it too - to quote COH:

Last of men to look down into its darkness was Brandir son of Handir; and he turned away in horror, for his heart quailed, and though he hated now his life, he could not there take the death that he desired.

Guys, it's the same "crazed" Brandir who killed Dorlas. Sure, Nienor was mad, and madness makes people blind, but madness does only so much.

One could say that Nienor escaped life because she didn't have the courage to fix it and set it right again, but that's not applicable here. Not with her life: it's doomed, and until she lives like Turin she'll cast her curse onto her loved ones. There is not way to set it right. And she can't escape it either (Turin tried that, but the past always caught up with him). ***see Denethor***

Turin - yet another "mad" one. Throughout his life he tried to put aside his past, his name, and his curse, and start life over again. He had a purpose in life for a long time - to take revenge on Morgoth. Hatered drove him on. However, when he came to accept who he is - Turin son of Hurin, a curse onto his kin, etc - and realised he can't just run away and start afresh his fate was much like Nienor's. And even more so, since he realised that by hating Morgoth he was doing what Morgoth planned for him. This was his motivation for living, as well as his family, which he thought was safe and found out was dead. It's like taking out two pillars that hold a building.

There's also another key thing here, forever. Just the thought of forever being Morgoth's puppet, forever bringing harm and destruction to where you tried to bring good, it's frightening.

To summarise, Turin's suicide is condoned. Both by the reader and by later generations.

Hurin - another one who has lost purpose and desire to live. "Bereft of all purpose and desire" - that's what The Sil says. There's no difference between death and life. Nothing matters. He wasn't escaping anything, because he had nothing to escape. Life is worthless. Hurin is honoured, respected, etc.

And since I'm on this family, I'd like to mention Morwen, who, once has achieved her only goal - to find her children - gives way to death. Her purpose drove her on when a more, quote unquote, sane person would have died, and once it was achieved the fire of life went out of her.

Elwing - yes, she's attempted suicide. During the Third Kinslaying she cast herself into the Sea. Thinking about her motivation, I came up with this thought: rather take my life and my dearest posessions myself than let them do it". This is questionable, though, since she left her sons to their own fate. We don't know the exact circumstances of Elwing's attempt, though, so it's possible that she did not willingly abandon Elrond and Elros - maybe they were captured, or they were separated, etc. The topic of lack of motherly protection has been quite popular, so I won't pursue it.

Maedhros - yet another one without a purpose. The loss of the right to the Silmarili this time. Maglor, on the other hand, always seemed to me as the less ambitious one, a more accepting personality. And he took solace in music.

Eowyn - somewhat similar to Fingolfin. But her's isn't a case of taking down as many foes as you can. She's such a case that I have a hard time explaining or putting down in words. I put special emphasis on the desire for death in battle. She was at the same time trying to take the last desperate step to her dream, and proving herself to Aragorn, and committing suicide. But I'm still missing the point I want to make. *sigh*

Denethor - utter, utter despair. His suicide can be sort of divided into two parts: before Gandalf's arrival and after. Before, we think his despair was caused by Faramir's near-death state. And that is, even in my opinion (), no legitimate reason to throw in the towel. But then we find out that this is only the breaking straw for Denethor - his despair goes much deeper beyond that, through the Palantir. And no, I can't anymore condemn him. He should have seen some light at the end of the tunnel, but you can't force a person to see it. Gandalf tried, unsuccessfully. In other words, I am taking the blame off Denethor. He's yet another character who the reader pities. And also one who is half mad.

His case is different from Nienor's because he actually had a real chance to find hope, start over, recover, you name it.

The Later Numenorians - they did not want to accept death when it came, and they tried to prolong their life. They clung onto their lives past their limits. In a way, they became thralls to life:

Fed only to keep alive, kept alive only to toil, toiling only for the fear of pain or death. (Sador in COH)

As mortals who are not completely broken by fate as the people above, they love life - who doesn't? But you have to give it away eventually. "One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters."

Aragorn - like the Numenorians during the earlier SA, Aragorn gives up his life on his own free will. He caught the right moment. You don't throw away your life just because you'll die eventually anyways, but you don't cling to it either. You just, well, hand it over when the moment comes.

This reminds me uncannily of the Tale of the Three Brothers (or some such - I forgot what it's really called) from Harry Potter 7. You know, the one about Death. Only the person who lived his life wisely and when time came embraced death died honourably.


But here comes this contradictory piece:

"Authority is not given to you, Stewart of Gondor, to order the hour of your death. And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death." (Gandalf to Denethor, ROTK)

The first part, about the authority, probably means that the right moment didn't come yet - according to Gandalf's judgement. The part about the suicidal kings condemns suicide for the sake of suicide - and murder, to make it less emotionally painful.


Generally speaking (which I wanted to do in the beginning, but ended up writing this for 2 hours), I tend to condone suicide. It's not to be idealised or encouraged, but I don't have it in me to call any person who deliberately parts with their life a coward. It's no simple thing to do. I've had many arguments about various suicidal characters with different people, and I always say that even if suicide is an escape from the obstacles of life, or the consequences, or etc, it's not like walking out the front door. It's not that you're just escaping your current conditions, you're escaping through something that generally living creatures fear to death (bad pun, I know). Instead, I ask to look at suicide from a different perspective: how dreadful or worthless can life be, if death seems better? Going back to the quote about Brandir, his life was also in shatters, but it wasn't bad enough for him to take his life himself. He didn't fear death in the end, but giving up your life and talking it yourself are in a way different things. Brandir did not have the despair to jump into Cabed Naeramarth, or perhaps the courage - which is not to call him a coward at all.

Ok, now I'm going off topic again, so I'm going to stop.

Originally Posted by Zil

Tolkien almost seems to imply Saruman should have done himself in.

Maybe not exactly done himself in, but loved life a tad less, if you get my meaning. He became a thrall of life.

Originally Posted by Zil

On an unrelated note, I've wondered if Gollum's "slip" wasn't really a suicide, conscious or not.

I don't believe that an accident can be called a suicide. The slip was accidental on Gollums part; you can argue that it was meant so by fate, but fate doesn't always give you your preference. I don't see a reason for Gollum to want to die. The Smeagol inside of him was dead a long time ago. His affection for Frodo disappeared. The only thing he had left was his hunger for his preciouss. In a sense, Gollum also falls into the category of people who upon their death have no purpose - either because it is unachievable, or because it has been achieved.



This might be the longest post I've written so far. Sorry for the novel.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't believe that an accident can be called a suicide. The slip was accidental on Gollums part; you can argue that it was meant so by fate, but fate doesn't always give you your preference.

What I key on is Frodo's threat that Gollum would be cast into the Fire. One might take that as a doom, or a curse, but Gollum wasn't made to fall by any discernible outside force. Therefore, I see it as a very possible subconscious effort on his part to free himself from the Ring in the only way he was then capable of being free. Frodo had given him the idea.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't see a reason for Gollum to want to die. The Smeagol inside of him was dead a long time ago. His affection for Frodo disappeared. The only thing he had left was his hunger for his preciouss. In a sense, Gollum also falls into the category of people who upon their death have no purpose - either because it is unachievable, or because it has been achieved.

Even at the very end I don't feel the Sméagol part was "dead". It was beaten down into only a whisper in Gollum's mind, but still: he could have felt a desire to help Frodo as well, if there was a way to do so without forgoing the Ring.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

What I key on is Frodo's threat that Gollum would be cast into the Fire. One might take that as a doom, or a curse, but Gollum wasn't made to fall by any discernible outside force. Therefore, I see it as a very possible subconscious effort on his part to free himself from the Ring in the only way he was then capable of being free. Frodo had given him the idea.

I have a different spin on the threat. I believe it was the ring itself that pronounced the threat / curse / prophecy / promise, rather than Frodo.

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hiddeous rage and lust; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

"Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."

The key words are 'out of the fire'. If so, the Ring, an aspect of and creation of Sauron, pronounced its own doom.

That the ring spoke those words is important to the primary theme. Throughout, Frodo was merciful towards Gollum, Sam was merciful towards Gollum, everyone was merciful towards Gollum. It's a big deal that the good guys, though Gollum deserved death, did not give it to him. Even the elves of Mirkwood showed Gollum more kindness than they would show a bunch of random dwarves. It was the Ring itself that did not show mercy.
.

[Nelyo]

First of all we must separate elven suicide and that of men.

First Children of Eru are bound to Arda, their fea can't leave it. When they are killed they go to Halls of Mandos where they find rest and healing. The Halls set them right, drive away the weariness of spent years. If Namo and Manwe decide that this fea is ready to live again, if the fea is ready to have children again (thanks Eru Feanor will return only before the end... 14 Sons of Feanor! Hide!) and if Eru gives his blessing then the elf is reembodied. The new body is like the one elf had in previous life. Being embodied is a natural state for the Elves, it is like a marriage of fea and hroa, soul and body, and it is not right for an elf to end his life. Celebrian decided to wait for help rather than commit suicide even if she had to depart to Valinor for healing later.
The hroa can die, "or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fea to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fea departs from it."
It is easy for an elf to kill himself. He just wills it to happen and whoa! he is in Mandos. Elves do it when they don't have the strenght or will to live on, or if they are heartbroken (Luthien) and it is not always considers bad. But sometimes it is impossible to do so. Maedhros couldn't die so he begged Fingon to shoot him. I suppose Morgoth denied his prisoners that way out of Angband, and the spell worked all their lives (Gwindor son of Guilin had no will to live before he met Turin, Maedhros had to jump into the fire crack to end his own existence).
Still sometimes fea can be denied the right to live again: if it commited grave sins (Feanor for sure and possibly all of his sons), if the elf fled from his body while he could still carry on his life (for example some elf was bored of living and decided to 'die' even if he was not weary as Miriel Therinde was). All in all those who killed themmselves have to spent more time in Mandos before they can feel the will to live again. Another probability to be denied life is if the fea's spouse is married again. That is why Miriel, even if the Valar said she was not guilty (she gave up her life), could not return after Finwe married Indis. Finwe had to stay in Mandos forever with both Miriel (alive) and Indis having a spouse in Mandos. Sometimes fea doesn't want to return, so it stays in Mandos. That is the sign of its weakness. Sadly Aegnor son of Finarfin is considered weak, even if he stayed because the woman he loved was mortal and couldn't return to Arda after her death. Those who died twice as a rule don't want to return, but that is not a weakness, at least I never found quotes where it is named the fea's fault. There is another sign of fea's "weakness": some don't answer The Call and never make it to Mandos (most of Avari). Those souls stay in the Middle-Earth longing for a body for ever, but they are not subjects for our study.
So as we can see Elven Suicide is not always a bad thing, but it is not for them to misuse the ability to flee from their problems))

As for Men, they never were the part of Arda to begin with. They are just guests in Middle-Earth, so they mustn't be afraid to move on, leave this world to find another one where they will be hosts (and the Elves - guests, as Finrod believes). Death was Eru's 'gift' to them, the chanse to see new places and walk away in search of their own for their souls are travellers. But Morgoth tainted it, planted in men fear of death, made them seek a cure from it. That was the Mens Failing, with it came illnesses and shortening of their lifespan.
When Numenoran kings decide to die they decide to accept the gift of death and depart without struggle. But it is only right when the time is right, and when you don't kill yourself out of despair. So Denethor II is wrong in his suicide and Elessar is accepting the One's gift. Nienor and Turin were locked in Arda and couldn't depart after their deaths in early versions of the text, so their suicides are not "right".

Tolkien never states that suicide is a good thing. He says that we must try our hardest to live when we can. and we mustn't be afraid of inevitable. It is natural for us to depart. So we will die. We have to do it with grace, if we do we will be the ones who accepted His Gift.


I recommend to read HoME-10 "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" for more info)

[Inziladun]

This topic was on my mind, and I was near starting a thread on it. I did a search first, and a good thing. I had quite forgotten this one, even though I posted in it.

I just wanted to bump it up and see if someone wanted to put in their two silver pennies.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This topic was on my mind, and I was near starting a thread on it. I did a search first, and a good thing. I had quite forgotten this one, even though I posted in it. .

Yes. The thought of it just kills me.