Part of the mind of Ilúvatar

[Formendacil]

It's odd reading an old post by me--especially one starting a thread I didn't remember that I'd started. While the thrust of my post seems to have been to clarify how Manwë and Melkor could be coëval, I don't think I was looking for a definition as I could have looked it up (mind you, I don't think I DID look it up...). For what it's worth, looking back from four years later, I don't think that Ibrîn's helpful clarification about the definition of coëval really clears it up; rather, I think it basically restates the problem, which I might define thus:

Melkor and Manwë are brethren in the mind of Ilúvatar--which fits with their being contemporaries. HOW does being brothers work?

Attached to this--indeed, I think, essential to it--is the question of how Manwë can be a fittingly matched opponent to Melkor, when Melkor alone is singled out as THE greatest of the Ainur. To me, this echoes how Lucifer can have been the greatest of the angels before his fall while Michael is the greatest of the angels... after the fall?*

The answer that occurs to me in the course of writing this--though maybe I should say it's the result of four years of deep meditation--is that Manwë is the equal of Melkor because he has the authority as vice-gerent of Eru. It's NOT that Manwë is the equal of Melkor in power, but that brute power is most properly opposed by authority--which power does not possess.




*Blame it on my current academic endeavour of reading John Milton, but now I'm wanting to play the game of "which archangel is which Vala?" Oromë and Ulmo seem good candidates for Raphael and Gabriel, though I'm open to alternative suggestions.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I have always imagined the "bretheren" really in the sense that they shared similar gifts. And yes, even power. Maybe Melkor was the mightiest of Ainur, but Manwë was right behind him; more importantly, I think when it comes to powers of, say, "govern", counsel, maybe the power of their imagination, mind, all that kind of stuff?

Yes, truth be told, Manwë did not really show us very much, but then again, we are never told about the "daily business of governing Valinor", or the early days of Arda and what's been created from whose initiative etc... I can imagine Manwë being the "nudger" to help others put their plans into shape, or help them and guide them to make their ideas work.

Thinking about e.g. the discussion between Manwë and Yavanna concerning the Ents (and Eagles). From what we know, Manwë certainly enjoys the respect of others and others come to him for counsel - they obviously must act that way based on their experience with him that he is the one who gives them good counsel.

That's nothing against what Form just said about the power and authority (which, if I understood correctly what he has in mind, is a very important notion). But I think the simple dimension of truly having the power and capability - "creative potential" - equal or similar to Melkor's (in its broadness) might be there. We have to put aside the simple clasification of Manwë only as the "lord of winds", which is, I believe, a common mistake and simplification (he simply turned to prefer a certain "portfolio" on top of everything, but nowhere it is told that his capabilities would be limited only to this area - that is in fact most strongly disputed exactly by putting him on the same level with Melkor).

[Galadriel55]

Manwe is the High King of Arda, whatever Morgoth claims. Ain't that some power/authority/whateveryouwanttocallit?

Even if his main field is the air/wind, he's the one in charge of all of Arda. Not solely, but he's like the chief superviser. That gives him, if not power, then authority over it.

[Inziladun]

I think Ibrin has it on the question of Melkor and Manwë being "coëval".

The Merriam-Webster definition of "coëval is

of the same or equal age, antiquity, or duration

The Valar are all brethren to one another, as evidenced by the quotes Form cited.

I therefore take Melkor's special connection with Manwë to mean that they came into being at the same time; the first creations of Ilúvatar. That would in no way conflict with the statements regarding Melkor being the most powerful of the Valar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I therefore take Melkor's special connection with Manwë to mean that they came into being at the same time; the first creations of Ilúvatar. That would in no way conflict with the statements regarding Melkor being the most powerful of the Valar.

I don't believe that. First, of course, I am rather convinced the term "first creations of Ilúvatar" cannot be understood in the temporal sense: as in, they were created as the first two. If for nothing else, then because the time itself did not exist back then yet (Timeless halls and all that prove that point, I'd say). I always thought the Ainur came into being more or less "at the same time", if you can use that expression.

And even if you can't - well, we are speaking about transcendental things here which cannot be spoken about in our terms, only metaphorically (because how can you speak about something that was before existence, right? Not to speak of, "before" time..). So even if Manwë and Melkor were the first creations of Ilúvatar and "came to being before all the others" (speaking metaphorically) - now what does it mean? It all comes down to that they share some priority, which is not temporal, but in their, well, power. Potential. Abilities. Call it whatever you will. And we are then back again at what I have been talking about... they simply do have equal potential.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't believe that. First, of course, I am rather convinced the term "first creations of Ilúvatar" cannot be understood in the temporal sense: as in, they were created as the first two. If for nothing else, then because the time itself did not exist back then yet (Timeless halls and all that prove that point, I'd say). I always thought the Ainur came into being more or less "at the same time", if you can use that expression.

How else does one explain the "coeval"="contemporary" situation then? All the Valar are brethren, but why would all necessarily have to have been thought into being at the same instance? I'm not saying that wasn't the case, but I don't think it's clear one way or the other.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And even if you can't - well, we are speaking about transcendental things here which cannot be spoken about in our terms, only metaphorically (because how can you speak about something that was before existence, right? Not to speak of, "before" time..). So even if Manwë and Melkor were the first creations of Ilúvatar and "came to being before all the others" (speaking metaphorically) - now what does it mean? It all comes down to that they share some priority, which is not temporal, but in their, well, power. Potential. Abilities. Call it whatever you will. And we are then back again at what I have been talking about... they simply do have equal potential.

If we're talking "power" on one hand versus "authority" on the other though, both are derived from the same source: the Creator. That being the case, I would think power would be trumped by authority, which should make Manwe the stronger of the two, in my opinion.Yet, we are indeed told that Melkor was the greatest of the Valar.

That's the reason I favor the “Yin-Yang" approach. The two of them could be connected in the mind of Eru by being opposites; Manwe being the "anti-Melkor"', there to oversee and ensure the Creator's purposes are pursued, as opposed to Melkor seeking to tear down and rebuild to his own designs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How else does one explain the "coeval"="contemporary" situation then? All the Valar are brethren, but why would all necessarily have to have been thought into being at the same instance? I'm not saying that wasn't the case, but I don't think it's clear one way or the other.

Read what I just said in what you quoted. The point is, you cannot use the word "contemporary", because there is no *time* when the Valar are created (or "when" the Valar are created). Therefore, if we use the word that Manwë and Melkor are "first", we must use it in metaphorical sense. And that metaphore can mean, for instance, that they had the first place in Eru's mind (sort of, the most important, or whichever other way you could - again more metaphorically than not - express it). And lo - we are back again at the original thought: if both of them had the first place in Eru's mind, then they are "coeval" in this respect. Plain and simple.

In any case, it all comes down to that Eru thought them equally important - that would go along with what you are saying further about authority eventually deriving from the Creator simply because he is the Creator. To borrow words from elsewhere, "power resides where people believe it to reside", or in this case, not the people, but the Creator - even if all other Valar were equally "powerful" (in the sense of how much they can do, make, spawn, whatever), or if let's say one of our two was not in fact as powerful as the other, then because Eru sees them that way, he makes them that way. (In contrary to the quote I used above, this is sort of "real" way of giving them the power, not just "imaginary" like in the case of the people-power example; because Eru is the Creator and his mere thought in fact becomes reality - logically.) That is one way to approach it. Another one (and the simpler one) is to say that simply Manwë and Melkor were created with the most capabilities, the biggest potential. Trivially speaking, Ulmo could create only things related to water, while Melkor "shared the gifts of all his bretheren" - and so did Manwë, in a certain way (and slightly less than Melkor). That is how I have seen it, always.

I wonder if there is another way to put it so that I make myself clear. Okay, for example - this is going to be a really baaad example, but I think it might be sufficient enough. Do you know the Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying game? (Or anything sufficiently similar. Whoever has no idea what it is, better maybe skip the rest of this paragraph so that it does not confuse you.) That's a crude example at best, but let's say: each Vala is a character with one class and several levels in it. Tulkas is level 10 fighter, Oromë is level 10 ranger, Yavanna is level 10 druid. And now we suddenly have Melkor, who is a multiclass of level 20 fighter/ranger/druid... and we have Manwë, who is a multiclass of level 19 fighter/ranger/druid... See what I have in mind? Sharing all the gifts of their bretheren, being more "proficient" at them, being almost equal in this respect (in this way, they have much more in common with each other than with the rest), and yet at the same time, Melkor is the stronger.

That's the reason I favor the “Yin-Yang" approach. The two of them could be connected in the mind of Eru by being opposites; Manwe being the "anti-Melkor"', there to oversee and ensure the Creator's purposes are pursued, as opposed to Melkor seeking to tear down and rebuild to his own designs.

That's what I agree with completely as well. "Yin-Yang" is a good way to put it (or Form's equally good comparison to Lucifer-Michael, for that matter, which looks at it from different perspective, and both of those comparisons can make the view more "plastic"). But that is also why I say they had the same amount of (or same kind of) power, or potential. Or, in the terms of my Dungeons and Dragons example, we have two almost the same characters, only one is good and one evil.