Hobbit2 - Chapter 02 - Roast Mutton

[Selmo]

“Hoot twice like a barn-owl and once like a screech-owl”.

Barn owl and screech-owl are two different names for the same bird.
They don't hoot, they screech.

Does this explain Bilbo's confusion or is Bilbo ignorant of all things pertaining to owls?
Is Thorin also ignorant or is it all down to a lapse of memory on Bilbo's part when he wrote down the story some years later?

Or, horror of horrors, is Tolkien wrong?

.

[jallanite]

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screech_owl .

Screech owl is sometimes used to mean barn owl but usually denotes a separate kind of owl from the barn owl. Unfortunately this kind of owl is a kind of American owl.

I suspect that Tolkien borrowed this distinction from some account associated with the New World and himself did not know the distinction.

The barn owl (Tyto alba) is found almost worldwide. The screech owl, (Strigidae) belonging to the genus Megascops, is limited to the Americas.

See http://www.inkart.com/pages/nature/owls.html

[Boromir88]

It's interesting reading this story after all the years of reading LOTR several times. The light, comedic tone (I think especially prevalent in Roast Mutton) was a bit jarring when compared to digging Tolkien's other works.

Although, I haven't always agreed with LOTR being strictly a dark/serious/adult story. The heavy moments are certainly more serious and terrifying than anything in The Hobbit. LOTR also flows like a roller coaster, it starts with a light and fun party atmosphere in The Shire, then Frodo's own adventure begins. But it continues with moments of rest and recovery (sometimes coming in the form of humor) and then gets heavier/more dangerous. My memory of The Hobbit may be completely off, but I think it follows the same roller coaster pattern.

TH-Bilbo doesn't jar with LOTR-Bilbo to me. I would even say Gandalf in LOTR still maintains some of his clever and light Hobbitish character. Of all the races Gandalf seemed most fond of Hobbits (even though he may have been compared more similarly to the Elves), and certainly with Hobbits (particularly with Bilbo) his personality is different, different than say when he's with Aragorn or Elrond.

It's the dwarves who may be the most jarring, and different from LOTR. Although, the only dwarf we get to know in LOTR is Gimli. And really TH-dwarves prove the essential personality trait in LOTR. LOTR tells us Dwarves are tough to tame, don't easily forget those who have aggrieved them, but also remember proven friends. The Dwarves never abandon Bilbo's friendship (even when Sauron's messenger comes looking for information from them in LOTR) and Gloin extends kindness to Frodo based on being Bilbo's relative.

This may not be specifically about Roast Mutton, but generally I agree the tone of the chapter was very light and child-like...possibly jarring when compared to even the lighter chapters in LOTR. Although, I think all of the personalities of the characters...make sense/fit.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...It's the dwarves who may be the most jarring, and different from LOTR. Although, the only dwarf we get to know in LOTR is Gimli. And really TH-dwarves prove the essential personality trait in LOTR. LOTR tells us Dwarves are tough to tame, don't easily forget those who have aggrieved them, but also remember proven friends. The Dwarves never abandon Bilbo's friendship (even when Sauron's messenger comes looking for information from them in LOTR) and Gloin extends kindness to Frodo based on being Bilbo's relative.

It seems to me that Gimli comes as a warrior resplendant, fresh from the gloriously rebuilt and refortified Lonely Mountain, wealthy, self-confident, and bold. In contrast, what we have in The Hobbit are a rag-tag assemblage of -- excuse me, but they admitted it-- coal-diggers and iron-miners. Thorin's thirteen are not all dwarves at the peak of their culture and glory. They are slummers; survivors; stubborn dreamers; and rather unlikely adventurers.

Somehow I doubt, if the timing and destiny had been otherwise, that (for instance) Bombur would have been selected as one of Frodo's nine companions. Gimli may be the token dwarf in the Fellowship, but consider the Fellowsihp's token elf is a prince, both men are heirs of great importance, and the leader is a Maia. Some of the members of Thorin's group are more like Pippin and Merry-- along for the trip whether they strictly belong or not.

TH dwarves are a motley lot; characters; unlikely; a ragtag coal-besmirched rabble, although a few of the leaders (similar to Aragorn) have some bloodlines to their name. That they have musical instruments is a good sign-- they remember their songs; they have not forgotten their heritage; they remember their culture; but by their own admission they haven't been living it for a while.

Can you imagine Gimli showing up at Rivendell with a bag of tools and a shovel?

The scene much later in the dragon's lair where the dwarves roam the treasure, fingering and hefting and studying various items, is a huge transition. It strikes me as the beginning of the end of their old life. One could assign that to the beginning of the book too, I suppose, but to me, the difference between Gimli and (say) Fili and Kili, is the transformation wrought by being a son of the Mountain, and the treasure and creativity and art and heritage-- and responsibility, and maturity, and majesty-- that goes with it.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

In contrast, what we have in The Hobbit are a rag-tag assemblage of -- excuse me, but they admitted it-- coal-diggers and iron-miners. Thorin's thirteen are not all dwarves at the peak of their culture and glory. They are slummers; survivors; stubborn dreamers; and rather unlikely adventurers.

I don’t think the dwarves are quite that bad off. Thorin refers to bad times in the past:

After that we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coalmining.

But those days are past. Thorin refers to the present quite differently:

‘ … And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off’—here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck ….

Thorin seems to me to be referring to himself and his companions as being what someone being less casual about it would call extremely wealthy. Later in Appendix A III in The Lord of the Rings Tolkien describes the life of the dwarves at this time:

So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) remained in Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after a fashion and their numbers slowly increased. But as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.

… There he [Thorin] laboured long and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away.

No reason is given as to why Thrór, Thráin, and Thorin did not join their folk with the folk of their kinsfolk in the Grey Mountains.

[Galadriel55]

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

Originally Posted by jallanite

No reason is given as to why Thrór, Thráin, and Thorin did not join their folk with the folk of their kinsfolk in the Grey Mountains.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

First of all, even if Thorin had considerable wealth for exile standarts, it was still meager in comparison to the former wealth of the Dwarves:

"Call them [halls] so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile." (Appendix A, III, Durin's Folk)

I fully agree.

The point I was apparently failing to make was that the coalmining and scavaging days of Thorin and his folk belonged to an earlier period than the point at which The Hobbit begins.

Firstly, because the Dwarves abandoned the Grey Mountains after Dain's (the first one) death, due to the constant threat of dragons. Secondly, for sentimental reasons. No mountain can be as good as home, and no success can really replace revenge in a Dwarve's heart.

I meant to type the Iron Hills not the Grey Mountains. Good catch!

To expand on this: if the Iron Hills settlement was going strong at the time, why would most refugees from Erebor not go there rather than to Dunland in the south? I have no trouble inventing several reasons why Thrór and his descendants did not do so, but Tolkien doesn’t indicate which of my reasons were correct ones or whether reasons I have not thought of might (also?) have a bearing on the matter.

The party who followed Thrór and his descendants would doubtless have longed for a return to the Lonely Mountain and their own land regardless of where they went.