The Lesser Rings

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Inziladun:

The "trifles", it would seem, were not, like the Three, made using Sauron's knowledgeable advice, so they should have been free from the influence of the One.

I'm not so sure I agree (or necessarily disagree) with you on this. I guess it assumes that the lesser rings pre-date Sauron's influence, that he co-opted a line of research that already existed, rather than introducing the idea of including "magic" in the production of jewelry that would otherwise be "just pretty" (but not useful). I suppose your idea would be consistent with the 'arts and crafts' idea of Middle Earth mentioned in another thread (I forget which one, sorry), that the elves would take something that was already useful and make it look pretty, rather than starting with a pretty thing and then finding a use for it. Form following function. I think it's possible that Sauron introduced the idea of "magic" into the elves jewelry-smithing partly (at least) to see which of the elven jewelers had the skills to make the "Great Rings" to which Sauron aspired. I guess I think even the lesser rings were subject to the influence of the One.

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc:

Indeed! And we see exactly this in Bilbo's story and his reaction to the magic ring - he is not like "huh, what is that?" but "okay, so I just found one of these magic rings known from fairytales, cool!" So the Elven "trifles" would be an explanation for the existing folk stories in Middle-Earth.

I guess this is a bit of a chicken or egg question (which came first?) Did Tolkien's choice of having Bilbo find a ring (rather than some other kind of bauble) derive from existing English folk-tales of magic rings, or did the Ring simply provide an opportunity for a tie-in to existing folklore and mythology by generating the possibility of these 'lesser rings' still existing, scattered around our own mythic world.

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc:

(As in: "I want to make a Ring which will allow me speak with animals, but I have never done that before - lo, I just managed to create a ring that will transform me into a bear!" This might be a bit exaggerated example, but I hope you got the point...)

Finally! a valid explanation for Beorn's shapeshifting ability! (maybe . . .)

[Boromir88]

One possibility is Saruman actually never made his own ring, but found one of the lesser rings and attempted to use it. He most likely would have continued to study the ring in a further attempt to make his own. Whether Saruman made a ring, or found one, it is clear that the result was like one of the "lesser rings."

In an earlier draft of Gandalf's discussion with Frodo in The Shire, there seems to be more evidence Saruman made the ring he wore:

"There was much talk of rings at the White Council...even wizards have much to learn as long as they live, however long that may be. There are many sorts of ring, of course. Some are no more than toys (though dangerous to my mind) and not difficult to contrive if you go for such things - they are not in my line."~HOME VII The Treason of Isengard: The Fourth Phase (1)

To Gandalf these lesser rings are "toys" and "trifles," but still dangerous to him. It is not in Gandalf's mind to make a lesser ring, but it wouldn't be difficult for a wizard to craft one, if he had the mind for it. And one thing that is continually stressed in Saruman's fall is that he had long delved into the studying the works of Sauron, especially Ring-lore.

However, this is not in the final text, and I think in the final versions, the evidence that Saruman crafted his Ring gets even slimmer. All that's mentioned is Gandalf suspected Saruman was close to the secrets of their making, but no confirmation that he had succeeded. In fact, it appears there were still some "missing links" in Saruman's study of ring-making:

Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth~Foreward

Now this is Tolkien explaining how his story is not allegorical to WW2, however, I think it still holds some important info about the character of Saruman. That is, there were missing links into his studies of ring-lore, he would have only found in Mordor. Being a "wizard" and always able to learn, he would have found the keys to ring-making, but it seems like he was still missing this pertinent info in LOTR.

It is only Saruman, who in a boast declares:

For I am Saruman, the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!"~The Council of Elrond

Capitilization of "Ring-maker" is interesting here, because it suggests a title or name. Saruman is not an occupational "ring-maker" he is "Ring-maker!" All the more interesting, considering it is the same name Gandalf gives to Sauron:

"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker."~The Shadow of the Past

So, in Saruman's trapping of Gandalf, his boast "Ring-maker" sounds more like Saruman trying to fashion himself in the style of Sauron, not that he was actually a "ring-maker." Although, that really just comes down to interpretation. Personally, I think Saruman found one of the lesser rings and tried to study it in hopes of furthering his study into ring-lore and their making. I think the othe interpretation would be Saruman was successful in crafting his own Ring (as would be possible for wizards who had the inclination for it), but this would have been a "toy" and "trifle" of a lesser ring.

[mark12_30]

I have always wondered why "The Voice Of Sauron" was so steenkin' old, without being one of the Nine, and how he wasn't faded, but he wasn't dead either, and how or why that happened. Lesser ring maybe...?

ps. Great point about Beorn, bearskins, and elven experimentation. "But I don't want to be a bear. Who wants this? You do, woodsman? Okay, here, take it."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I do not entirely agree with Inziladun on the power issue. Sure, usurping power for yourself through various means is a bad thing in M-E, but we see these limits crossed many times, especially by proud and gifted people, which the Ring-makers certainly were. Even without the corruption by Sauron, such Rings could have been made.

My point was that such efforts to attain 'unnatural' power don't seem to end well for the aspirants. At any rate, that might make an idea for another thread...

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

In any case, I don't see why the lesser rings would only be made to preserve like the Elven ones; after all, the Three were made for special purpose, but these were not, they were experiments - so the Elves could make them do all sorts of things, where they were just testing what they can do. That could, in fact, have produced even more interesting results than the "true" Rings, because the Elves did not make them with specific purpose - or with necessary the same results they expected. (As in: "I want to make a Ring which will allow me speak with animals, but I have never done that before - lo, I just managed to create a ring that will transform me into a bear!" This might be a bit exaggerated example, but I hope you got the point...)

Healing and preservation seem to be the overriding concern of the Elves. I think, too, that the powers of any ring were limited by the abilities of the maker. The Elves were specially gifted as healers; not as shape-shifters or whatnot.

Originally Posted by radagastly

I'm not so sure I agree (or necessarily disagree) with you on this. I guess it assumes that the lesser rings pre-date Sauron's influence, that he co-opted a line of research that already existed, rather than introducing the idea of including "magic" in the production of jewelry that would otherwise be "just pretty" (but not useful). I suppose your idea would be consistent with the 'arts and crafts' idea of Middle Earth mentioned in another thread (I forget which one, sorry), that the elves would take something that was already useful and make it look pretty, rather than starting with a pretty thing and then finding a use for it. Form following function. I think it's possible that Sauron introduced the idea of "magic" into the elves jewelry-smithing partly (at least) to see which of the elven jewelers had the skills to make the "Great Rings" to which Sauron aspired. I guess I think even the lesser rings were subject to the influence of the One.

In Letters (which I don't have with me at the moment), Tolkien states that the Three, though not made by Sauron personally, were still in the end products of his instruction. That is the only reason they were under the One. Therefore, logically any items produced without Sauron's input should have been exempt from its influence.

Originally Posted by mark12_30

I have always wondered why "The Voice Of Sauron" was so steenkin' old, without being one of the Nine, and how he wasn't faded, but he wasn't dead either, and how or why that happened. Lesser ring maybe...?

Well, we're told the Mouth was a "Black Númenórean", but that doesn't mean he had to be extremely old, or one of the Ar-Pharazôn originals. I always perceived that as merely a description of his heritage, just as as people like Aragorn and Denethor are said to be of the race of Númenor.

[radagastly]

I like the speculation that the ring Saruman wore was one of the lesser rings, but I still think it was one of his own making. Certainly, I think, Gandalf would have "sensed" the difference between the two, while he wore his own ring, if he chose to try. The fact that he never speculated that it was one of the lesser rings seems to indicate that he thought it was Saruman's own manufacture. Good catch on the passage from HoME (The Treason of Isengard). At least there is some more info on these lesser rings.


This discussion does make me more interested in Saruman's research into Ring-making. We know he scoured the Gladden Fields seeking the One. Might he have also journeyed to Hollin seeking long buried little secrets? What about Mordor? If his research preceded The Battle of Five Armies by enough time, he may well have been able to pick through the remnants of the Black Tower or even Sammath Naur despite the fact the Nazgul were holed up in Minas Morgul. What a sticky situation that could have been, if he had been caught.

Originally posted by Mark 12_30:

ps. Great point about Beorn, bearskins, and elven experimentation. "But I don't want to be a bear. Who wants this? You do, woodsman? Okay, here, take it."

I also like this. Certainly it's well established that Beorn was 'just a man.' But he was a man who could change his shape and talk to animals, bend them to his will and need. Why not one of the lesser rings?

Originally posted by Inziladun:

In Letters (which I don't have with me at the moment), Tolkien states that the Three, though not made by Sauron personally, were still in the end products of his instruction. That is the only reason they were under the One. Therefore, logically any items produced without Sauron's input should have been exempt from its influence.

This still presumes that the elves made the lesser rings before Sauron showed up to provide instruction. I guess there are three possibilities here:
1. The elves were making magic rings already, then Sauron showed up and immediately escalated this craft to making the "Great Rings." Therefore, the lesser rings were not created with his input, and so not subject to influence from the One Ring.
2. The elves were making magic rings already, then Sauron showed up and began to improve the craft, making many more lesser rings and eventually helping the elves to develop to the point where the Great Rings were possible. The earliest of the lesser rings would be free from Sauron's input and influence but the later developments would not.
3. The elves were not making magic rings at all until Sauron showed up and introduced them to the process. All the lesser rings would then be subject to the One since they all derived from his instruction.

My own (admittedly personal) opinion is that since Sauron was seeking to trap or trick the elves into subjugation through the Rings, that the most likely scenario is number 3, thus Sauron's pseudonym as the Giver of Gifts. What greater gift could there be than the idea of Ring-lore and their making?