Movie Characters Revisited: Gandalf

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What do you feel about Gandalf hugging Bilbo? After Bilbo is yelling he doesn't want any visitors, but opens the door to Gandalfs "And what about very old friends." That fits a little more based on of course their long past and it would be rather normal when seeing a personal friend again, after many years. I basically loved all of the scenes between the two Ians, two actors who knew what they were doing, what they wanted to convey and it came off great.

Agreed. For some reason, the old ages of Gandalf and Bilbo, even without knowing of their long friendship, make the signs of affection more palatable. I'm a great fan of Ian Holm anyway, and the two actors do have a chemistry to them.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You know, I wish I would have thought to ask this in the first post, because it's a difference I always forget about when watching. Maybe because the "Shall not pass" is, as you say, become the one that's remembered more. There is more power behind "shall not" because it is a future tense, and it is Gandalf saying he will stop the Balrog's will of trying to cross, but the Balrog "shall not."

McKellan's Gandalf comes off there as too, well, emotional in my opinion. I always thought the book Gandalf to handle that stand on the Bridge with steely-eyed coolness: "You cannot pass!"- maybe like Clint Eastwood.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Witch-King and Denethor scenes go without saying. Also, not sure why he had to hit his head on the beam of the house. And does anyone else find the scene with Shadowfax unbelievably cheesy?

But movie-Gandalf supplied more good moments than most, so that's something.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Witch-King and Denethor scenes go without saying. Also, not sure why he had to hit his head on the beam of the house. And does anyone else find the scene with Shadowfax unbelievably cheesy?

I believe hitting his head on the beam (talking about when he's in Bag End?) was a goof that Jackson kept in, since McKellan acted through it quite well. I agree it's rather silly, but I also agreed with Jackson that Sir Ian acted through that accidental bump well.

I love the music when Shadowfax is introduced (actually I think most times even if I don't like a scene, the music winds up saving it). Shadowfax does appear randomly and seemingly out of nowhere, then you get Legolas' line "That is one of the mearas, unless my eyes are cheated by some spell." Eck.

Glad you're on board too Eomer!

[Galadriel55]

I think that the scene of Gandalf hitting his head was not bad at all, and in some ways necessary to establish right away that hobbits are smaller than your average man to those audiences that have not read the books.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I tend to agree with your view on Gandalf and Sir Ian's work, however my impression is that even in the book he was never Gandalf the Infallible. What puzzled me was the fact that he was described as explosive and, sometimes, impatient (while, on the other hand, kind, forgiving and merry).

What he says.

And indeed, he could be called Gandalf the Inscrutable. In recall, Gandalf is all hero, the kindly, wise old grandfather figure with hidden power. But in a close read, it's apparent that he doesn't have all the answers and is as capable of making mistakes as anyone else, especially when he is Gandalf the Grey.

The head banging scene is quite apt, I feel, for this Gandalf.

But after his battle with the Balrog he does return from something otherworldly, possibly an encounter with Eru, or at least his fellow Ainur. If Glorfindel and Galadriel are possessed of an incredible Light because they have walked in both Valinor and Middle-earth, then Gandalf is this and more so. Glorfindel was sent back after 'death', and Galadriel travelled back - Gandalf has been back twice. So to me, the change portrayed by Ian McKellen is consistent and there is nothing to fault.

And besides, I am honour bound to defend my fellow Lancastrian

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

then you get Legolas' line "That is one of the mearas, unless my eyes are cheated by some spell." Eck.

Haha! Forgot about that line. Makes it even better.

Man, Legolas might be the best movie character ever. I can't wait for that thread.

[Mithalwen]

For me Ian McKellen was never Gandalf. He never disappeared into the part. I think actually the stage background can be a disadvantage - the smallest gesture is magnified so large on a cinema screen that what works on the stage seems overdone . I found a lot of his performance rather mannered and obvious. I still think the way he says "Fly, you fools!" is odd but I may be too used to and too fond of Hordern's Gandalf in the Radio version. May be the script was written Fly! You Fools!... ho hum

Physically he didn't quite match my idea of Gandalf... particularly the potato nose. Always imagined Gandalf as beakier. When I see repeats of Wycliffe I always get the feeling that Gandalf spent his retirement solving crime in Cornwall but I suppose that is a personal thing. And yes I had strong images from having read the books but other actors who didn't correspond to the mental images won me over.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron:
Sir Ian did just fine as Gandalf, whether Grey or White; however, he was at the mercy of the script, which will be a recurring theme for me throughout these sordid discussions.

Yes, but. No actor could rise much above the quality of the script they're obliged to enact, even those with some talent like Viggo and Cate. Now McKellen has a lot of talent, and rendered G the Grey in a way that enhanced the wtritten part and in some ways corrected for its bad patches.

However, I don't find that to be the case with his G the White. Whereas in Tolkien Gandalf Returned is a bit more aloof or distant given his enhanced knowledge and latent but unchallengeable power, Sir Ian's GII is not aloof so much as simply passive, less engaged in general unless he's being an old worry-wort.

He has a nice moment giving Pippin the transplanted "white shores" passage, but he still comes across rather like a wise old schoolmaster-officer bucking up his cadet in the face of the final and fatal Afghan/Zulu/Ashanti charge- surely NOT a situation book-GII would ever have been in even had Tolkien envisioned Trolls bashing at the inner gates of Minas Tirith. Book G the W had nothing to fear in all of Middle-earth except - maybe - Sauron himself; it's for that reason really that T never puts him in a combat situation.* Had Ian understood Gandalf 2.0, he would or should have given us quiet but unshakable confidence.

*Does the Witch-King abandon the Great Gate because of cock-crow and the unexpected dawn? In small part, perhaps- but mostly because he senses, for all his bravado, that he doesn't dare try his strength against that old man. "You cannot enter here," says Gandalf, in almost the same words as "You cannot pass" on the bridge of Khazad-dum. But this time he is mightier, and his foe is no Balrog.

[d4rk3lf]

For me, Ian acting of Gandalf completely ruined the film.
I am not talking about his look (he looks just like Gandalf), but psychologically this is just not the Gandalf from the book. Not even close.

To make it clear, I'll try to find some Gandalf characteristics in the book, and I hope most of you will agreed with me.
He is:
1) Charismatic and have great authority
2) Full of (hidden) energy
3) Very rhetoric
4) Wise and intelligent.
5) He is not revealing his plans to almost anybody, which makes him pretty mystic.

Now, let's take a look at the Gandalf from the movie:
Is he charismatic? I don't think so. He don't have the authority to make people listen to him, even when they don't like what they hear. Hi just looks week with his tired eyes, I would dare and say: his expressions is boring.
It's more like a funny old man that hits hobbit roof with his head, and "ouch" funny. Is that Gandalf ther gray? I think not.
Where do we see a fameus Gandalf rhetoric power in the movies? He just had (completely unnecessary) arguing with Elrond, and even there he is just a tired worried old man.
Where do we see his ability to act quickly and wise during the movie? To make everybody obey his quick demands.

I was not convinced during the fight with Balrog, and even much more disappointed with the fight with the Nazgul.
If somebody don't believe me, read the book where Gandalf meets Nazgul, and then watch that same fragment in the movie.
If you say that's the same characters, then I admit something is wrong with me, and my interpretation.

P.S. Lack of charisma is also what ruined Aragorn character aswell, imho.
From the other side, Saruman was great, and had just the right charisma for the Istari kind.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Originally Posted by Morthoron:
Sir Ian did just fine as Gandalf, whether Grey or White; however, he was at the mercy of the script, which will be a recurring theme for me throughout these sordid discussions.

Yes, but. No actor could rise much above the quality of the script they're obliged to enact, even those with some talent like Viggo and Cate. Now McKellen has a lot of talent, and rendered G the Grey in a way that enhanced the wtritten part and in some ways corrected for its bad patches.

However, I don't find that to be the case with his G the White. Whereas in Tolkien Gandalf Returned is a bit more aloof or distant given his enhanced knowledge and latent but unchallengeable power, Sir Ian's GII is not aloof so much as simply passive, less engaged in general unless he's being an old worry-wort.

He has a nice moment giving Pippin the transplanted "white shores" passage, but he still comes across rather like a wise old schoolmaster-officer bucking up his cadet in the face of the final and fatal Afghan/Zulu/Ashanti charge- surely NOT a situation book-GII would ever have been in even had Tolkien envisioned Trolls bashing at the inner gates of Minas Tirith. Book G the W had nothing to fear in all of Middle-earth except - maybe - Sauron himself; it's for that reason really that T never puts him in a combat situation.* Had Ian understood Gandalf 2.0, he would or should have given us quiet but unshakable confidence.

*Does the Witch-King abandon the Great Gate because of cock-crow and the unexpected dawn? In small part, perhaps- but mostly because he senses, for all his bravado, that he doesn't dare try his strength against that old man. "You cannot enter here," says Gandalf, in almost the same words as "You cannot pass" on the bridge of Khazad-dum. But this time he is mightier, and his foe is no Balrog.

I agree with much of what you say here regarding G the W, WCH, but again, much of that was scripted. For instance, one cannot evince bravado when it is scripted that the WiKi splinters G the W's staff, knocks his character clean off his horse and he grovels before the WiKi on the ground (and only the cock crow saves him). That is directorial intervention, not acting.

In the movie council scene before the army of Gondor leaves for the Morannon ("The Last Debate" chapter from the book), Gandalf's wisdom and cunning lines are given to Aragorn, and Gimli makes his jests in brogue. Peter Jackson removed Gandalf as the prime mover of the actions of the West (as Tolkien intended) and instead handed the impetus to Aragorn.